Code change on GFCI Protection for 250 volt 50 amp receptacles.

[kwired]

In all seriousness, even with the hassle it is bound to create, it seems like a fairly logical requirement in terms of personnel that are likely to be in potentially well grounded positions (ie. kneeling, laying, or leaning on concrete, metal, and earth) all while working with equipment, fed with power cords that can get old and abused, not to mention sharp edges and materials- that could in some worst case scenario come in contact with the conductor inside SO or whatever and become energized or expose the energized conductors to the surrounding environment.

Please do not kill me for that statement.

Past GFCI requirements were mostly where risks seemed to be highest and at least partly considered statistics of where incidents were more commonly occurring. Was mostly limited to 15 and 20 amp 120 volt receptacles before. There are so many of those out there for one thing. Next is it is pretty common to see missing or compromised EGC pin on the cords. If you can assure the EGC is in good condition that greatly reduces the need for GFCI protection - and a reason why a hardwired item usually won't require GFCI but a similar cord and plug connected item does - it is the receptacle and it's location, not the load served that triggers GFCI requirements for most of 210.8.

How many missing EGC pins have you ever seen on a 30 or 50 amp cord cap? I can't say I ever have. I'll even say I seldom if ever seen missing EGC pin on 6-15 or 6-20 cord caps. No need for people to break those off as you just don't run into non grounding receptacles for them.

I have no issue with the concept of GFCI's and do think they serve a good purpose but don't see they are a must have for this sort of thing as a general rule.

 

[falconewk]

I too contract in the Tri cities “Stanley Electrical” and do the same with the disconnects. I get primo pricing on cutler hammer but the supply houses can’t beat Lowe’s or Home Depot on their cheap hot tub disconnects.

Also I just ran into this again today actually where I needed a 200 ampere fused/breakered disco. The disco without a breaker is cheap. You can buy the 200 ampere breaker for hundreds but a 32 space ch panel for less than 75 bucks. Then throw away the panel. Or I’ve saved it and bought main lugs for it as a sub panel.

I'm the clown that runs "Falcon Electric;" I was pleased with my little find, but yours is substantially more impressive/$$$ saving.

Past GFCI requirements were mostly where risks seemed to be highest and at least partly considered statistics of where incidents were more commonly occurring. Was mostly limited to 15 and 20 amp 120 volt receptacles before. There are so many of those out there for one thing. Next is it is pretty common to see missing or compromised EGC pin on the cords. If you can assure the EGC is in good condition that greatly reduces the need for GFCI protection - and a reason why a hardwired item usually won't require GFCI but a similar cord and plug connected item does - it is the receptacle and it's location, not the load served that triggers GFCI requirements for most of 210.8.

How many missing EGC pins have you ever seen on a 30 or 50 amp cord cap? I can't say I ever have. I'll even say I seldom if ever seen missing EGC pin on 6-15 or 6-20 cord caps. No need for people to break those off as you just don't run into non grounding receptacles for them.

I have no issue with the concept of GFCI's and do think they serve a good purpose but don't see they are a must have for this sort of thing as a general rule.

Good points all, and thanks for the extra info on why GFCIs were initially required.

I enjoy this forum and have been reading it for a number of years: I've found your input is good and worth paying attention to in any given thread. (nice work to accumulate 36,000+ posts; for some reason my brain always keys in on the net post total of any given moderator or long time user to get a feel for "forum hierarchy" as a given topic is being parsed out:ashamed1

 

[Craigv]

Nope, its a millwright fab shop. So what about farm shops where people drive equipment in to the shop to work on it??? We live in farm shops where everybody has at least a couple of weld outlets in their shops. This code change is going to piss people off big time!

It absolutely will piss off a lot of people. And I agree with the common assessment that many of these supposed safety concerns are little more than lobbying by manufacturers to sell more expensive products.

But out at the end of the day, I have to agree that the environment (garage type shops) they're often used in is quite conducive to shock hazards. Park a vehicle that's been driven in rock salted snow, and it drips brine into the concrete. Then have an employee kneel on that floor while welding the frame.

Even simply standing in the typical shallow puddles that form on a shop floor and touching equipment with a fault. Back in the 80's I watched a coworker get electrocuted across the shop from me when he grabbed the handle of a battery charger to move it. The floor was wet from snow melting off cars. Luckily the guy in the next bay saw it and was able to yank the plug, but the guy suffered permanent nerve damage in his hand and arm.

 

[kwired]

It absolutely will piss off a lot of people. And I agree with the common assessment that many of these supposed safety concerns are little more than lobbying by manufacturers to sell more expensive products.

But out at the end of the day, I have to agree that the environment (garage type shops) they're often used in is quite conducive to shock hazards. Park a vehicle that's been driven in rock salted snow, and it drips brine into the concrete. Then have an employee kneel on that floor while welding the frame.

Even simply standing in the typical shallow puddles that form on a shop floor and touching equipment with a fault. Back in the 80's I watched a coworker get electrocuted across the shop from me when he grabbed the handle of a battery charger to move it. The floor was wet from snow melting off cars. Luckily the guy in the next bay saw it and was able to yank the plug, but the guy suffered permanent nerve damage in his hand and arm.

The battery charger I have no problem with using GFCI. Majority of them will have a 5-15 plug on them and seems more common to have missing ground pins on the cords - which likely why your coworker incident happend, a good EGC would have allowed enough fault current to trip branch circuit device.

Same for the small welders that plug into 5-15 and 5-20 receptacles.

But a welder plugged into a 6-50 receptacle - I doubt that chance of losing the EGC is all that great. For one thing the welder maybe never moves, just the work leads get drug out to the work. Those leads are on secondary of a transformer - there can be some shock hazard from the secondary but that won't matter to a GFCI in the supply circuit.

 

[Craigv]

The battery charger I have no problem with using GFCI. Majority of them will have a 5-15 plug on them and seems more common to have missing ground pins on the cords - which likely why your coworker incident happend, a good EGC would have allowed enough fault current to trip branch circuit device. <br>
<br>
Same for the small welders that plug into 5-15 and 5-20 receptacles.<br>
<br>
But a welder plugged into a 6-50 receptacle - I doubt that chance of losing the EGC is all that great. For one thing the welder maybe never moves, just the work leads get drug out to the work. Those leads are on secondary of a transformer - there can be some shock hazard from the secondary but that won't matter to a GFCI in the supply circuit.

The cordset and receptacle were in good order. There was a fault in the charger that caused it to leak to the case and handle, but not enough to trip the breaker. A GFCI in the washroom was tried, and tripped when the charger was plugged in.

 

[kwired]

The cordset and receptacle were in good order. There was a fault in the charger that caused it to leak to the case and handle, but not enough to trip the breaker. A GFCI in the washroom was tried, and tripped when the charger was plugged in.

If case and handle are connected to a good EGC, there is no reason to not trip the breaker, unless the neutral is what faulted to the case - but even then the voltage rise on the case/handle probably isn't more then a volt or two if all the supply connections are in good condition.