Code compliant LOTO devices

[goldstar]

Would someone please point me in the right direction as to what LOTO devices are acceptable for SqD HL breakers ? A colleague of mine failed an inspection twice. Used a Ideal product first time around and was not acceptable to the EI. IMHO it served the purpose by flipping the plastic device around so the breaker can be held in the off position. I believe the EI is looking for something to actually be "lockable" with an actual lock. For you NJ contractors this job is in Verona, NJ if that means anything.

 

[iwire]

http://www.amazon.com/Square-Schneider-Electric-HOM2PALACP-Attachment/dp/B00KYJFETE

 

[Cavie]

The device must be attached to the breaker held in place by the cover. You must be able to install a lock on the device so the breaker cannot be turned on. I forget the #. Two letters dash 1 # I think. (xx-o) each brand has it's own device. don't know of a universal.

 

[infinity]

The code is pretty clear you need a device like the one in Bob's link.

 

[goldstar]

Thank you all.

 

[kwired]

Would someone please point me in the right direction as to what LOTO devices are acceptable for SqD HL breakers ? A colleague of mine failed an inspection twice. Used a Ideal product first time around and was not acceptable to the EI. IMHO it served the purpose by flipping the plastic device around so the breaker can be held in the off position. I believe the EI is looking for something to actually be "lockable" with an actual lock. For you NJ contractors this job is in Verona, NJ if that means anything.

LOTO is OSHA requirements, the Ideal product mentioned is typically suitable for LOTO purposes.

In some places in NEC there is requirements that a breaker have locking provisions and must remain in place even when not in use - that is where the device like Bob provided a link to must be used. To comply with LOTO rules there are many breakers out there that don't require a permanent locking device to be installed, but LOTO rules allow all sorts of temporary locking devices to be used.

LOTO is more then just locking electrical items, it is also locking the supply of air, gas, pressurized liquids, mechanical loads, etc.

 

[infinity]

LOTO is OSHA requirements, the Ideal product mentioned is typically suitable for LOTO purposes.

In some places in NEC there is requirements that a breaker have locking provisions and must remain in place even when not in use - that is where the device like Bob provided a link to must be used. To comply with LOTO rules there are many breakers out there that don't require a permanent locking device to be installed, but LOTO rules allow all sorts of temporary locking devices to be used.

LOTO is more then just locking electrical items, it is also locking the supply of air, gas, pressurized liquids, mechanical loads, etc.

Although the OP mentions LOTO this question is more likely about using a breaker lockout device in lieu of a disconnecting means.

 

[kwired]

Although the OP mentions LOTO this question is more likely about using a breaker lockout device in lieu of a disconnecting means.

I agree, just trying to straighten him out on terminology. LOTO is not an NEC term yet he appears to be talking about an NEC compliance inspection.

 

[goldstar]

The Ideal product that was first used was a plastic clip on device which, IMHO, served the purpose. This is in a residence not a commercial app. If a repairman is working on an appliance, removes the LO device while the breaker is in the on position, shuts the breaker, reinstalls the device to lock it off do we really need a pad lock on that device so that no one will change the state of the breaker ? If the Code section indicates a "lock-out" device does it actually mean , in addition to installing the device, that you now have to go out and buy a Yale lock to insure none of the residents can willingly go to the breaker panel and reactivate the breaker ?

Not to mention, if the breaker happens to trip you now have to explain to a HO how to reset the breaker while the device is in the "locked on" position. A bunch of crap in a residential application IMHO.

Just venting. :rant::rant:

BTW, I thought LOTO was a generic term. If it is used only for commercial apps the I stand corrected.

 

[infinity]

T
BTW, I thought LOTO was a generic term. If it is used only for commercial apps the I stand corrected.

Actually it's not, it would also apply directly to your residential installation and is the reason why you need the breaker lockout device installed on the CB. The repairman comes in shuts the breaker off and installs his lock and tag, hence the term Lock Out/Tag Out.

 

[goldstar]

Actually it's not, it would also apply directly to your residential installation and is the reason why you need the breaker lockout device installed on the CB. The repairman comes in shuts the breaker off and installs his lock and tag, hence the term Lock Out/Tag Out.

OK, I'll buy that explaination. But [who] would be going to the breaker panel to reactivate the breaker in a residence ?

 

[infinity]

OK, I'll buy that explaination

I think that I might live to 100 before I see anyone ever put a lock and tag on a residential CB.

 

[goldstar]

I think that I might live to 100 before I see anyone ever put a lock and tag on a residential CB.

I'm with you. Are repairmen now carrying LOTO's with them ?

 

[kwired]

As I said earlier LOTO is OSHA terminology. It related to employee safety and is used for more then just locking off electrical energy.

NEC does not require breaker locks, but they are optional in some (but not all) cases instead of a local disconnect at some appliances. Most of those optional instances NEC does require the locking device to remain fixed even when a lock is not installed on it. The padlock is a separate component with either style locking device.

NEC doesn't require the local disconnect at an appliance to be lockable. LOTO procedures generally do otherwise it wouldn't be called "Lock" Out Tag Out.

 

[ramsy]

I think that I might live to 100 before I see anyone ever put a lock and tag on a residential CB.

Thats because they are not convinced its needed, until after they get elecrocuted.:slaphead:

 

[jusme123]

OK, I'll buy that explaination. But [who] would be going to the breaker panel to reactivate the breaker in a residence ?

the only person who should 'activate' that breaker is the person who placed the LOTO on it!!

I think that I might live to 100 before I see anyone ever put a lock and tag on a residential CB.

Scenario:
Pool electrician visits house, shuts breaker off to pool light, pool electrician disconnects light, pool electrician goes to supply house for parts, kids goes swimming, sibling turns pool light breaker on , you just lost your business and all assets

 

[infinity]

the only person who should 'activate' that breaker is the person who placed the LOTO on it!!




Scenario:
Pool electrician visits house, shuts breaker off to pool light, pool electrician disconnects light, pool electrician goes to supply house for parts, kids goes swimming, sibling turns pool light breaker on , you just lost your business and all assets

I'm not against the concept and we install them to be code compliant but it's just that a fact of the matter is that IMO no one will ever use the lockout device on a breaker in a single family dwelling, including the pool guy.

 

[goldstar]

the only person who should 'activate' that breaker is the person who placed the LOTO on it!!




Scenario:
Pool electrician visits house, shuts breaker off to pool light, pool electrician disconnects light, pool electrician goes to supply house for parts, kids goes swimming, sibling turns pool light breaker on , you just lost your business and all assets

I know what you are trying to say but any electrician worth his salt who leaves wires exposed after disconnecting a light should lose his license. Whether you have a LOTO device or put a piece of tape across a breaker NO ONE but the electrician should be turning the breaker back on. Tape the breaker panel cover closed if you have to but don't leave an unsafe condition to go to the supply house.

 

[kwired]

I don't get as concerned on service calls for residential but have been on residential new construction or remodel jobs where other trades are still working and I don't always trust them when it comes to possibly having something turned on while working on it. All they need to do is be using some power tool and trip a breaker - I mostly use QO breakers that have trip indication - but non electricians just don't get that concept - many just start flipping switches until their equipment starts again Those are the times when you absolutely need some method of keeping them out of the panel, locks, or disconnect any leads from breakers that are not ready to be energized yet.

 

[goldstar]

LOTO device

LOTO device

I guess we can all come up with scenarios where someone could get injured if an electrician didn't install a breaker lock. In this case a device was installed to prevent someone from inadvertantly re-energizing the circuit. What difference would it make if that device was one with a lock on it ? As long as we come up with "if" scenarios then if someone came along with a bolt cutter and cut the lock off then the circuit can be re-energized.

I wish I could give you more info on this job but I helped a friend wire it several months ago and he tells me that the EI failed him twice for an incorrect breaker LOTO. I'm guessing the type that I wire posted, made by SqD is the way to go.