Code Compliant or Esthetics?

[romeo]

Code Compliant or Esthetics?

this is not exactly a new requirement, you would think that a cabinet company would be aware of the fact that a receptacle is required on a kitchen island, the location for the receptacle should be part of the design and should be cut out for the electrician when its built.

I agree and have been saying that for a long time.

Question, Does the fact that the inspector passes a non code compliant installation relieve the electrician of the liability?

 

[electricmanscott]

I agree and have been saying that for a long time.

Question, Does the fact that the inspector passes a non code compliant installation relieve the electrician of the liability?

NOBODY is EVER relieved of ANY liability. NEVER EVER.

 

[EBFD6]

Wow! I agree with Scott. Very few rules in the NEC are life and death, and every "holier than thou" who says that they have never over looked one of the more insignificant rules is lying.

Yeah, I said it.

Just the other day, I did a pipe run and supported the emt 38" from the box instead of the allowed 36" and I can still sleep like a baby.

 

[roger]

Question, Does the fact that the inspector passes a non code compliant installation relieve the electrician of the liability?

Not IMO.

Roger

 

[peter d]

This thread is a perfect example of how lawyers rule our country. :roll:

FWIW, I would try my best to put in the outlet (maybe use one of those fancy mono point ones posted earlier in the thread), but if a customer was absolutely adamant that they didn't want it, I just might accomdate them.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Wow! I agree with Scott. Very few rules in the NEC are life and death, and every "holier than thou" who says that they have never over looked one of the more insignificant rules is lying.

Yeah, I said it.

Just the other day, I did a pipe run and supported the emt 38" from the box instead of the allowed 36" and I can still sleep like a baby.

Actually had one of my men come up being 3 inches to short on friday.Would not let him add a coupling and a piece.No not a biggy but just not worth cost to fix if caught.

 

[mpd]

the same homeowner who did not want the receptacle, will be the one hiring a lawyer if something happens, then they will be saying he should of put it in if it was a requirement, were not electricians we did not know it is required, and you won't have a leg to stand on

 

[M. D.]

the same homeowner who did not want the receptacle, will be the one hiring a lawyer if something happens, then they will be saying he should of put it in if it was a requirement, were not electricians we did not know it is required, and you won't have a leg to stand on

I agree and yet I have committed violations ,.not proudly of course.

mpd, do you think there is room for an exception??

there have been many attempts and some of the concern is valid ,..no ??

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

the same homeowner who did not want the receptacle, will be the one hiring a lawyer if something happens, then they will be saying he should of put it in if it was a requirement, were not electricians we did not know it is required, and you won't have a leg to stand on

This is the way it will happen.

 

[M. D.]

Well there have been several cases of serious burns regarding fryers and children pulling on cords ,.. these cases led to the breakaway cord sets standard. I would love to know how many were plugged in as shown in the picture I posted..

Since 1980, CPSC has reports of 7 deaths and 64 serious burn injuries to children under 10 with deep fryers. These deaths and injuries resulted from young children pulling on the power cord, tipping over the deep fryer and its hot contents.

 

[electricmanscott]

Well there have been several cases of serious burns regarding fryers and children pulling on cords ,.. these cases led to the breakaway cord sets standard. I would love to know how many were plugged in as shown in the picture I posted..

Oh well, tough luck for them.

 

[iwire]

Well there have been several cases of serious burns regarding fryers and children pulling on cords ,.. these cases led to the breakaway cord sets standard. I would love to know how many were plugged in as shown in the picture I posted..

And the rest would have been on a normal counter so I guess those receptacles should go as well.

 

[iwire]

NOBODY is EVER relieved of ANY liability. NEVER EVER.

I agree 100%, but you stand a much better outcome when you can say I did what was required instead of having to say I chose to ignore the requirements.

 

[mpd]

this is not a new requirement, i am surprised the kitchen people have not come up with a solution that would make it easier on everybody

or maybe if there was a way to attach that any appliance to the island or peninsular countertop, would be no hazard

 

[iwire]

"holier than thou" who says that they have never over looked one of the more insignificant rules is lying.

Well I know you not talking to me 'cause I ain't holier then anyone and I have never said that I have not broken a rule.:grin:

 

[SEO]

Receptacles used to be called convenience outlets. Is it convenient having one on an island or an inconvenience installing one there ? Section 210.52 (C) (2) says that they are required so it must be convenient having one there.

 

[M. D.]

And the rest would have been on a normal counter so I guess those receptacles should go as well.

No,.. and I'm not saying that the Island receptacle outlet should be prohibited.

I'm saying there should be room for an acceptable exception ,..as in choice. Draped cords are dangerous anyone who has raised a kid , or been around one in a home ,..knows that cords , of all types ,.. are going to be pulled.

 

[Ebow]

This thread has run on alot longer than I expected it would. So now I am going to add my 2 cents worth to it. I have run afoul of several HO and GC on the island recepticle issue. I would say that 90% of the time I got to install the recepticle, maybe more. The rest of the time I ran the circuit to the island and it was boxed off inside the cabinet. Then when it failed the Inspector was the one who fought with the HO or CG about it. I just came back and installed it where someone other than me determined it to be.

Since depending on where the job is located the inspection could be by any one of several AHJ's (city or county) in some cases no recept would be fine and others not. Some of those who required one would even accept it inside the cabinet (?) as long as it was accessable from the working area of the top! The one time I questioned this I was given the line - "I am the AHJ and it can go where I deem suitable." Or something to that effect.

Gene
____________________________________
Remember - Speed Kills and it may not always be you.

 

[joebell]

I have dealt wth this issue a couple times myself. As stated by a couple
posters earlier I would always wire for this required receptacle In some instances the HO did not want me to install it.I would inform them that it was required by code and that I would talk to the inspector about it when he came to inspect. Approx. 50% of the inspectors would let it go without it being installed.

Now because the NEC requires the receptacle does that make it a safer than if it was not there. I don't know I can see the rational in both arguments. I can think of two possible solutions to this problem

1) Propose a change to this rule (This has been tried in the past and failed but maybe the substantiatin was not strong enough to persude the change. IMO stay away from adding an exeption it seems the last few code cycles the cmps are looking to do away with execeptions)


2) Design a receptacle and enclosure to be installed on the conter surface this would eliminate the hanging cord danger. Of course it would have to be asthetically pleasing for the designers.


Joe

 

[jim dungar]

IMO a variance would not apply here, I cannot grant someone a variance that would allow less than the required minimum or delete code sections, that is not the purpose of a variation

But you could if you were operating under the Wisconsin State code provisions for variances.