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keith gigabyte

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Here we go again...repairing some items found during occupancy inspection of single family home. Issue on report...kitchen is required to have GFCI outlets. Installed 2 GFCI's. Existing home and wiring. One GFCI protects 2 outlets. 2nd GFCI has no equipment ground. Installed and put stickers on to indicate GFCI protected and no equipment ground. this is permitted per 406.3
code officer said it failed because his tester wouldn't trip it. I agreed it wouldn't and asked why it failed inspection. He said GFCI needed ground to work...I said no it does not. He goes on to say he is not an electrician and has no expertise in the field but I still need to provide ground. I reply I'm licensed in the city of Pittsburgh so I have taken a test of competency and therefore makes me a qualified electrician. I go on to ask exactly which code he is using to require an equipment ground. He says the current IRC. I asked for a copy of that page. His reply was well how does a GFCI work. I told him there is a ct that checks phase current and neutral current and if more than 4-6 ma differential it will trip. At that point he replied well you may be right I need to talk to a few colleagues and get back to you.
How can we effectively make these amateurs realize we are right.

feed back welcome good or bad
thanks
 
Here we go again...repairing some items found during occupancy inspection of single family home. Issue on report...kitchen is required to have GFCI outlets. Installed 2 GFCI's. Existing home and wiring. One GFCI protects 2 outlets. 2nd GFCI has no equipment ground. Installed and put stickers on to indicate GFCI protected and no equipment ground. this is permitted per 406.3
code officer said it failed because his tester wouldn't trip it. I agreed it wouldn't and asked why it failed inspection. He said GFCI needed ground to work...I said no it does not. He goes on to say he is not an electrician and has no expertise in the field but I still need to provide ground. I reply I'm licensed in the city of Pittsburgh so I have taken a test of competency and therefore makes me a qualified electrician. I go on to ask exactly which code he is using to require an equipment ground. He says the current IRC. I asked for a copy of that page. His reply was well how does a GFCI work. I told him there is a ct that checks phase current and neutral current and if more than 4-6 ma differential it will trip. At that point he replied well you may be right I need to talk to a few colleagues and get back to you.
How can we effectively make these amateurs realize we are right.

feed back welcome good or bad
thanks

Let's take a standard GFCI receptacle and take it apart. Inside you will find an electronics board (an IC to some of you), a sensor, and a contact. Since the innards of an actual GFCI are quite complicated, I'll use my crude drawing to make things (hopefully) a little more clear.

GFCI1.jpg




Now, let's plug in a power tool, with the assumption that the tool is safe to use.

GFCI2.jpg




When you turn the drill on, it draws current through the entire circuit.... the 'hot' and 'neutral' conductors both have the same amount of current flowing through them, only in opposite directions.

GFCI5.jpg




Since the same amount of current is flowing through both the hot and neutral, they will cancel each other out and the sensor will detect 0.0 amps. If this sensor detects more than 0.005 amps (5mA), then the electronics picks this up and will open the contact, turning power off to the outlet.

So let's do just that. Let's say there's a problem with the cord or the metal case of the drill (yea, I know, the drill looks like it's plastic, but let's pretend it's metal), and a ground fault exists between it and a ground. Now, current will flow through the hot, and to the ground fault. Let's say the fault current is 0.05 amps.


GFCI6.jpg




The drill will still run properly, but part of the current it consumes does not return through the proper path (the neutral). Instead, it flows through the ground fault.

The sensor will detect an imbalance of 0.05 amps, and the electronics will open the contact and turn of the power.

This is the primary and sole function of GFCI protection. It is assumed a ground fault is going through a human being and turn the power off. Only when the fault is removed will the ability to restore power with the 'Reset' button work. The GFCI does not care whether there actually is a human getting shocked or not. It could be the end of a cord is lying in a puddle of water. It could be a fault the operator of the drill is not a part of. Nonetheless, once more than 0.005 amps flows through a ground fault, the GFCI opens.

Now, in order to test a GFCI receptacle, the manufacturers put in a handy-dandy Test button. What this test button does is create a small current flow (using a resistor to simulate a load with a ground fault) that intentionally bypasses part of the sensor, forcing it to sense that imbalance. If the GFCI sensor, contact, and electronics are functioning properly the power will be shut off.

GFCI7.jpg




Now, up until this point, you will notice the 'Ground' wire has not been mentioned, nor has any current flowed along it. Point is, none needs to. The ground wire is there to open the breaker or fuse if there is a fault within the wiring beyond the receptacle. If the drill was shorted internally, then the ground would carry enough current to cause the breaker or fuse to open and turn off the power. The ground wire is for the operation of the breaker or fuse, NOT the GFCI. If no ground wire existed to feed this receptacle, the GFCI will still function as designed...... sensing imbalances and turning power off in a ground-fault situation.

The only function a ground wire has in the operation of a GFCI is when a plug-in tester is used to test a GFCI. One important note here; the industry standard is to use only the built-in Test button to check for proper function. UL does not recognize using plug-in testers as a proper method of testing GFCIs.

GFCI8.jpg



With a properly-wired (3-wire) GFCI receptacle, the only way a plug-in tester can safely simulate an imbalance is to induce it through the ground. It has to, since it cannot bypass the sensor using the neutral. If you placed the resistor between the hot and neutral, the GFCI would only 'see' it as any other load, as the current flow between the hot and neutral would be equal and cancel each other out at the sensor.

With the plug-in tester, the current flows out through the hot, and back through the ground. Since current flow on the ground is not going through the sensor, only the current on the hot is detected. With no opposing return current flow to balance it out, the electronics assume a ground fault and opens the contact... turning power off.

If you only have a 2-wire (ungrounded) circuit, then the plug-in tester cannot create a current flow on the ground as the ground is not there. Since no current can flow in this incomplete circuit, the GFCI will sense 0.0 flow and not open the contact.

GFCI9.jpg



There are other things today's GFCIs do that are not relevant to the discussion here, but I'll mention them here.

One is Loss of Neutral. The electronics can sense the loss of the circuit's neutral, and will open the contact. The reason being, if there is no neutral, the electronics cannot function in order to open the contact in the event of a ground fault. So if the neutral feeding the circuit opens, the GFCI will turn the power off.

Another is a self-test function. If the internal wiring of the GFCI becomes damaged (either physically or, say, a surge due to lighting), the power will shut off as well. Pushing the Reset button will not reset it.... it will stay off and need to be replaced.

Another important function is Line-Load and Hot/Neutral Miswire detection. If the power to the receptacle is mistakenly attached to the Load terminals, or if the hot and neutral are reversed on the Line terminals, the GFCI will detect these installation errors as well and will not turn on until the problem(s) is (are) corrected. This is to ensure the GFCI is wired correctly at initial install to provide proper protection for the life of the unit.

Most GFCI receptacles today are also Tamper-Resistant (notice the TR on the face) to keep foreign objects from being pushed into the slots, and GFCIs are available in Weather-Resistant versions for installation in damp and wet locations.



OK, school is out.
 
At that point he replied well you may be right I need to talk to a few colleagues and get back to you.
How can we effectively make these amateurs realize we are right.
Exactly the way you did, using diplomacy and knowledge. It's not his fault that some municipality put him into a position he wasn't prepared for.

Roger
 
so, most inspectors use the plug-in type to test, whether it be in the gfi receptacle itself or a downstream std outlet that is attached to the gfi. so in essence the inspector does not have a "test" button on downstream protected receptacles yet they are required to test them if they are GFI'd using the tool they have been given by the AHJ. thus if the other recepts have no egc then s/he will find it to be "faulty" because the tool is perhaps not the tool for the test. the tool they are using verifies egc during the test, etc. it really comes down to educating the AHJ to change their testing equipment and NEC code, etc. until then you have to fight the AHJ, etc.
 
A GFCI device should be testing with the integral test button. Incompetent inspectors make all of the good ones look bad.
 
A GFCI device should be testing with the integral test button. Incompetent inspectors make all of the good ones look bad.

a downstream gfi connected std recept has no test button ;)
 
Here we go again...repairing some items found during occupancy inspection of single family home. Issue on report...kitchen is required to have GFCI outlets. Installed 2 GFCI's. Existing home and wiring. One GFCI protects 2 outlets. 2nd GFCI has no equipment ground. Installed and put stickers on to indicate GFCI protected and no equipment ground. this is permitted per 406.3
code officer said it failed because his tester wouldn't trip it. I agreed it wouldn't and asked why it failed inspection. He said GFCI needed ground to work...I said no it does not. He goes on to say he is not an electrician and has no expertise in the field but I still need to provide ground.

He was wrong about the gfci needing an egc to work but (depending on what the receptacles were going to feed) he could have correctly pinched you on 250.114 (3) A&B- some things are required to have a egc -whether or not gfci'd.
 
Last edited:
Yup and if it has no EGC, like in the OP, then a plug in tester won't work.

so how does the inspector test it?


2nd'ly

Section 110.3(B) states, “listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.”

does the GFCI say to connect an EGC or does it say "optional"? some do say "if one exists".

so the gray area is if the gfi recept has EGC but the downstream does not.
 
so how does the inspector test it?


2nd'ly

Section 110.3(B) states, “listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.”


Which is the precise reason you need to use the test button on the GFCI.
 
no EGC ??? hmmm, her 3prong hairdryer falls into the tub as she dries her hair while sitting in the water. how does the gfi trip? amps leave hot, hits the water, into her, back into water, back to N. amps in = amps out = no trip = shocked her

gfi w/o egc is just bad choice imho.
 
no EGC ??? hmmm, her 3prong hairdryer falls into the tub as she dries her hair while sitting in the water. how does the gfi trip? amps leave hot, hits the water, into her, back into water, back to N. amps in = amps out = no trip = shocked her

Well of course the first part of that is true.

The second part is a maybe, if there is nothing grounded she is going to have a hard time getting a shock. Possible but not probable.

Keep in mind the NEC cannot make people add an EGC, but they can make us use a GFCI device as a replacement device when there is no EGC. It's better than nothing but not as good as an EGC.
 
Let's take a standard GFCI receptacle and take it apart. Inside you will find an electronics board (an IC to some of you), a sensor, and a contact. Since the innards of an actual GFCI are quite complicated, I'll use my crude drawing to make things (hopefully) a little more clear.

GFCI1.jpg




Now, let's plug in a power tool, with the assumption that the tool is safe to use.

GFCI2.jpg




When you turn the drill on, it draws current through the entire circuit.... the 'hot' and 'neutral' conductors both have the same amount of current flowing through them, only in opposite directions.

GFCI5.jpg




Since the same amount of current is flowing through both the hot and neutral, they will cancel each other out and the sensor will detect 0.0 amps. If this sensor detects more than 0.005 amps (5mA), then the electronics picks this up and will open the contact, turning power off to the outlet.

So let's do just that. Let's say there's a problem with the cord or the metal case of the drill (yea, I know, the drill looks like it's plastic, but let's pretend it's metal), and a ground fault exists between it and a ground. Now, current will flow through the hot, and to the ground fault. Let's say the fault current is 0.05 amps.


GFCI6.jpg




The drill will still run properly, but part of the current it consumes does not return through the proper path (the neutral). Instead, it flows through the ground fault.

The sensor will detect an imbalance of 0.05 amps, and the electronics will open the contact and turn of the power.

This is the primary and sole function of GFCI protection. It is assumed a ground fault is going through a human being and turn the power off. Only when the fault is removed will the ability to restore power with the 'Reset' button work. The GFCI does not care whether there actually is a human getting shocked or not. It could be the end of a cord is lying in a puddle of water. It could be a fault the operator of the drill is not a part of. Nonetheless, once more than 0.005 amps flows through a ground fault, the GFCI opens.

Now, in order to test a GFCI receptacle, the manufacturers put in a handy-dandy Test button. What this test button does is create a small current flow (using a resistor to simulate a load with a ground fault) that intentionally bypasses part of the sensor, forcing it to sense that imbalance. If the GFCI sensor, contact, and electronics are functioning properly the power will be shut off.

GFCI7.jpg




Now, up until this point, you will notice the 'Ground' wire has not been mentioned, nor has any current flowed along it. Point is, none needs to. The ground wire is there to open the breaker or fuse if there is a fault within the wiring beyond the receptacle. If the drill was shorted internally, then the ground would carry enough current to cause the breaker or fuse to open and turn off the power. The ground wire is for the operation of the breaker or fuse, NOT the GFCI. If no ground wire existed to feed this receptacle, the GFCI will still function as designed...... sensing imbalances and turning power off in a ground-fault situation.

The only function a ground wire has in the operation of a GFCI is when a plug-in tester is used to test a GFCI. One important note here; the industry standard is to use only the built-in Test button to check for proper function. UL does not recognize using plug-in testers as a proper method of testing GFCIs.

GFCI8.jpg



With a properly-wired (3-wire) GFCI receptacle, the only way a plug-in tester can safely simulate an imbalance is to induce it through the ground. It has to, since it cannot bypass the sensor using the neutral. If you placed the resistor between the hot and neutral, the GFCI would only 'see' it as any other load, as the current flow between the hot and neutral would be equal and cancel each other out at the sensor.

With the plug-in tester, the current flows out through the hot, and back through the ground. Since current flow on the ground is not going through the sensor, only the current on the hot is detected. With no opposing return current flow to balance it out, the electronics assume a ground fault and opens the contact... turning power off.

If you only have a 2-wire (ungrounded) circuit, then the plug-in tester cannot create a current flow on the ground as the ground is not there. Since no current can flow in this incomplete circuit, the GFCI will sense 0.0 flow and not open the contact.

GFCI9.jpg



There are other things today's GFCIs do that are not relevant to the discussion here, but I'll mention them here.

One is Loss of Neutral. The electronics can sense the loss of the circuit's neutral, and will open the contact. The reason being, if there is no neutral, the electronics cannot function in order to open the contact in the event of a ground fault. So if the neutral feeding the circuit opens, the GFCI will turn the power off.

Another is a self-test function. If the internal wiring of the GFCI becomes damaged (either physically or, say, a surge due to lighting), the power will shut off as well. Pushing the Reset button will not reset it.... it will stay off and need to be replaced.

Another important function is Line-Load and Hot/Neutral Miswire detection. If the power to the receptacle is mistakenly attached to the Load terminals, or if the hot and neutral are reversed on the Line terminals, the GFCI will detect these installation errors as well and will not turn on until the problem(s) is (are) corrected. This is to ensure the GFCI is wired correctly at initial install to provide proper protection for the life of the unit.

Most GFCI receptacles today are also Tamper-Resistant (notice the TR on the face) to keep foreign objects from being pushed into the slots, and GFCIs are available in Weather-Resistant versions for installation in damp and wet locations.



OK, school is out.


You should teach!:thumbsup:
 
Keep in mind the NEC cannot make people add an EGC, but they can make us use a GFCI device as a replacement device when there is no EGC. It's better than nothing but not as good as an EGC.

Here is the relevant code section


406.4(D)(2) Non–Grounding-Type Receptacles. Where attachment
to an equipment grounding conductor does not exist in the
receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with
(D)(2)(a), (D)(2)(b), or (D)(2)(c).

(a) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted
to be replaced with another non–grounding-type receptacle(
s).

(b) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted
to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter type
of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked
“No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor
shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit interrupter-
type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the
ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle.

(c) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted
to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s)
where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter.
Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the groundfault
circuit interrupter shall be marked “GFCI Protected”
and “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding
conductor shall not be connected between the grounding
type receptacles.

That no equipment ground sticker kind of limits what the NEC allows to be plugged in but of course homeowners do not read 250.114 too much. ;)
 
Here is the relevant code section




That no equipment ground sticker kind of limits what the NEC allows to be plugged in but of course homeowners do not read 250.114 too much. ;)


Are you an electrical inspector? :?

You should seriously consider.:thumbsup:
 
a downstream gfi connected std recept has no test button ;)

Neither do standard recs fed from a gfci breaker.:)

Section 110.3(B) states, “listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.”

does the GFCI say to connect an EGC or does it say "optional"? some do say "if one exists".

so the gray area is if the gfi recept has EGC but the downstream does not.

Remember there is the 406 exc explicitly allowing gfci w/o egc and that many gfcis do come with those "no equipment ground" stickers, so seems to me manufacturers/NEC don't think gfci sans the egc violates listing of the gfcis.:)
 
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