Code enforcement

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user 100 said:
He was wrong about the gfci needing an egc to work but (depending on what the receptacles were going to feed) he could have correctly pinched you on 250.114 (3) A&B- some things are required to have a egc -whether or not gfci'd.
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He never quoted NEC section but rather IRC code but still has yet to show me or provide section he is using to fail it.
 
user 100 said:
He was wrong about the gfci needing an egc to work but (depending on what the receptacles were going to feed) he could have correctly pinched you on 250.114 (3) A&B- some things are required to have a egc -whether or not gfci'd.
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I agree egc needed per 250 .114 but he is only testing the receptacle..no cord and plug connected equipment is in place here. So that would not apply
 
keith gigabyte said:
He never quoted NEC section but rather IRC code but still has yet to show me or provide section he is using to fail it.
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keith gigabyte said:
I agree egc needed per 250 .114 but he is only testing the receptacle..no cord and plug connected equipment is in place here. So that would not apply
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I understood-just giving example of where he could have reasonably (and with an actual code ref) tagged you under those specific circumstances in a kitchen-I was thinking about a fridge or freezer.

AFAIK, there is no nothing in the IRC that backs up what he is saying- He is simply wrapped up in the myth about gfcis needing an egc to function- ask the guy, if it did, then WHY are those "no equipment ground " labels provided w/ the device?:D
 
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FionaZuppa said:
no EGC ??? hmmm, her 3prong hairdryer falls into the tub as she dries her hair while sitting in the water. how does the gfi trip? amps leave hot, hits the water, into her, back into water, back to N. amps in = amps out = no trip = shocked her

gfi w/o egc is just bad choice imho.
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I see where the no GFCI trip with your water situation but explain how an egc would change the outcome of GFCI. Might help an ocpd tjough
 
keith gigabyte said:
I see where the no GFCI trip with your water situation but explain how an egc would change the outcome of GFCI. Might help an ocpd tjough
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If there are metal parts in the dryer that are connected to the cord EGC as well as parts connected to hot and neutral, then if there is a grounded EGC there will be unbalanced current even without a person in the circuit.
If no grounded EGC, then it is unlikely that there would be enough of a voltage gradient in the water outside the dryer housing to give a shock. Unless there is a grounded drain in the tub, in which case there will be a shock hazard, but the GFCI will be tripped immediately.
The illustrative experiment of tossing a dryer into a bucket of water works only if you do not use a grounded metal bucket! :)

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 
FionaZuppa said:
so, most inspectors use the plug-in type to test, whether it be in the gfi receptacle itself or a downstream std outlet that is attached to the gfi. so in essence the inspector does not have a "test" button on downstream protected receptacles yet they are required to test them if they are GFI'd using the tool they have been given by the AHJ. thus if the other recepts have no egc then s/he will find it to be "faulty" because the tool is perhaps not the tool for the test. the tool they are using verifies egc during the test, etc. it really comes down to educating the AHJ to change their testing equipment and NEC code, etc. until then you have to fight the AHJ, etc.
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You don't need to pull out the NEC. You need to pull out the UL White Book and direct them to


OUTLET CIRCUIT TESTERS (QCYU)
GENERAL
This category covers portable devices with fixed attachment-plug blades, or probes attached to flexible leads, used to indicate various wiring conditions in 15 or 20 A branch circuits by a pattern of lights or other similar means along with markings or instructions to identify the probable wiring conditions which cannot be determined by the tester.
The devices may include provisions for checking the functions of a ground-fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) connected to the branch circuit, or for indicating that a branch circuit is connected to an arc-fault circuit interrupter (AFCI). .......................
These devices are not intended for use as comprehensive diagnostic instruments.
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Added emphasis is mine.
 
user 100 said:
I understood-just giving example of where he could have reasonably (and with an actual code ref) tagged you under those specific circumstances in a kitchen-I was thinking about a fridge or freezer.

AFAIK, there is no nothing in the IRC that backs up what he is saying- He is simply wrapped up in the myth about gfcis needing an egc to function- ask the guy, if it did, then WHY are those "no equipment ground " labels provided w/ the device?:D
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More to the point, why does the NEC allow the use of GFCI receptacles on ungrounded circuits?




Better yet, ask how to ground a GFCI circuit breaker...................
 
a gfi should have a egc at the outlet. the modes of fault are more common to the egc. take it away and now you dont have full coverage of the gfi.


OUTLET CIRCUIT TESTERS (QCYU)
GENERAL
This category covers portable devices with fixed attachment-plug blades, or probes attached to flexible leads, used to indicate various wiring conditions in 15 or 20 A branch circuits by a pattern of lights or other similar means along with markings or instructions to identify the probable wiring conditions which cannot be determined by the tester.
The devices may include provisions for checking the functions of a ground-fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) connected to the branch circuit, or for indicating that a branch circuit is connected to an arc-fault circuit interrupter (AFCI). .......................
These devices are not intended for use as comprehensive diagnostic instruments.
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well,
1) see the 1st part i underlined, that is bad verbiage because a "tester" is the tool, a "testor" is the person doing the testing. end in "or" is usually a person when used in this context of a sentence. the same thing when we say "the weldor is using a welder to weld".
2) what exactly is the definition of "comprehensive diagnostic" ? would you argue that to test a 2-wire gfi you need a tester that is a comprehensive diagnostic instrument? QCYU's that short to EGC are built that way to make sure a EGC is there, because its safer to have EGC with GFI, and in most cases a EGC is required.

i agree with you all, but its sometimes hard to convince the AHJ.
 
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FionaZuppa said:
a gfi should have a egc at the outlet. the modes of fault are more common to the egc. take it away and now you dont have full coverage of the gfi.
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Once again......... having a proper ground terminated on the GFCI does nothing to affect the functionalilty of a GFCI-protected circuit.

Nothing.

If you believe this is the case, then I suggest you submit a change to the 2020 NEC. I'm sure they'll all be interested in your documentation attesting to your claim. And a few members here would love to peruse it as well.

FionaZuppa said:
well,
1) see the 1st part i underlined, that is bad verbiage because a "tester" is the tool, a "testor" is the person doing the testing. end in "or" is usually a person when used in this context of a sentence. the same thing when we say "the weldor is using a welder to weld".
2) what exactly is the definition of "comprehensive diagnostic" ? would you argue that to test a 2-wire gfi you need a tester that is a comprehensive diagnostic instrument? QCYU's that short to EGC are built that way to make sure a EGC is there, because its safer to have EGC with GFI, and in most cases a EGC is required.

i agree with you all, but its sometimes hard to convince the AHJ.
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I'll let you take the issue up with UL. I'm not the one to discuss this with.



Again.......... if a ground is required for a GFCI to work, let me know how you ground GFCI breakers. Do you ground your GFCI breakers to 'make them safer'?
 
Use a wiggy

Use a wiggy

The other way to show it works is to take your wiggy and go from the hot Slot to a known ground, it will trip the GFI.
 
480sparky said:
Let's take a standard GFCI receptacle and take it apart. Inside you will find an electronics board (an IC to some of you), a sensor, and a contact. Since the innards of an actual GFCI are quite complicated, I'll use my crude drawing to make things (hopefully) a little more clear.

OK, school is out.
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Nice Job with your diagrams, 480.
 
480sparky said:
Once again......... having a proper ground terminated on the GFCI does nothing to affect the functionalilty of a GFCI-protected circuit.

Nothing.
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ok, well, lets walk through fault scenarios

1) voltage fault to you to your bathroom sink drain, GFI trips because you bridged ~5mA
2) a voltage fault from hot to you and back to the EGC (the egc connected to the hairdryer, etc). with an EGC the GFI trips, w/o EGC you become bonded to hot and GFI does not trip. The non-EGC GFI setup just missed this "fault" (being bonded to hot w/o amps is still a fault in my book). if the EGC was there then GFI would have tripped and fault cleared. w/ or w/o EGC the GFI will trip out based on fault amps, but w/o EGC the GFI will not be able to trip when the fault is back to the EGC on faceplate side, etc.


The NEC should write in some verbiage for 2-wire GFI. if the wiring does not have EGC then 2-prong receptacles (gfi or otherwise) should be used. it was argued a zillion times here on MHF that the NEC cant rely on the user, so to me, placing a "no EGC" sticker on a 3-prong GFI or 3-prong downstream outlets is just stupid. if the wiring cannot accommodate an EGC then the outlets should not support it.
 
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