Code question and company telling me otherwise

[Tonybrzez]

I have a simple question, Mike Holt you may wanna way in on this. I have a 60 amp (480vac,3ph) service to a bending machine that is so big it's not being moved. One of the guys says they are being told they (higher-ups) want it wired with a 6ga SO cord so they can move it around a few feet one way or the other to satisfy operators walking a foot or so less but they haven't figured that out yet. I told them no , it has to be hard wired conduit, they want me to "cord" it. it's clearly a permanent installation. The use of SO cord for this is specific in the NEC not to be substituted for permanent wiring. What do I do?

 

[iwire]

Mike Holt almost never answers questions here.

You don't have a service, you have a feeder or branch circuit.

Portable is not defined in the NEC, portable to a company with a large bending machine is not the same as portable to my grandmother.

I would wire the machine with cord but to do so would require a receptacle that the cord plugs into.

See 400.7(A) and (B).

 

[petersonra]

I suppose you could use flex conduit of some sort. That would allow it to move around a little as well, but personally, I think cord is the way to go.

400.7 Uses Permitted.
(A) Uses. Flexible cords and cables shall be used only for
the following:
***
(3) Connection of portable luminaires, portable and mobile
signs, or appliances
***
(6) Connection of utilization equipment to facilitate frequent
interchange
***
(8) Appliances where the fastening means and mechanical
connections are specifically designed to permit ready removal
for maintenance and repair, and the appliance is
intended or identified for flexible cord connection

I think this machine qualifies under any of these three criteria.I do think the poster who said it would need to be cord and plug connected is probably correct.

B) Attachment Plugs. Where used as permitted in
400.7(A)(3), (A)(6), and (A)(8), each flexible cord shall
be equipped with an attachment plug and shall be energized
from a receptacle outlet or cord connector body.

 

[Tonybrzez]

So I'm understanding correctly, the receptacle is ,(has to be) 19 feet above the machine in the rafters of the roof of the building. That after the plug (needs to be 60 amp) will then drop down to a 60 amp disconnect which will stand alone. This is required by the saftey guy so you can turn off the machine before entering a fenced in area, then it will have another cord (6ag SO cord) going from the disconnect mounted to the bending machine. Sorry I didn't get the service/branch terminology correct.

 

[jumper]

Good Mike Holt article on cords and machinery:

http://ecmweb.com/code-basics/flexible-cords-cables-and-fixture-wire

 

[kwired]

So I'm understanding correctly, the receptacle is ,(has to be) 19 feet above the machine in the rafters of the roof of the building. That after the plug (needs to be 60 amp) will then drop down to a 60 amp disconnect which will stand alone. This is required by the saftey guy so you can turn off the machine before entering a fenced in area, then it will have another cord (6ag SO cord) going from the disconnect mounted to the bending machine. Sorry I didn't get the service/branch terminology correct.

You could have a pendant drop with receptacle at the bottom end of the pendant. If you are required to have a disconnect outside the fence then you need to find a way to make that work. NEC wouldn't require that disconnect, but if it is "within sight" can be used for any NEC disconnect required to be "within sight".

 

[petersonra]

So I'm understanding correctly, the receptacle is ,(has to be) 19 feet above the machine in the rafters of the roof of the building. That after the plug (needs to be 60 amp) will then drop down to a 60 amp disconnect which will stand alone. This is required by the saftey guy so you can turn off the machine before entering a fenced in area, then it will have another cord (6ag SO cord) going from the disconnect mounted to the bending machine. Sorry I didn't get the service/branch terminology correct.

No reason you cannot run some kind of raceway down from the ceiling to the disconnect switch. Put the receptacle in a wall of the disconnect and run cord from there if it fits. If not run conduit to a junction box closer to the machine and install the receptacle there, and then cord from there to the machine. I would be inclined to use a locking type plug and receptacle.

Incidentally, you could use a piece of strut that is listed as raceway from the ceiling down to the floor and run your vertical wires in that.

 

[iwire]

So I'm understanding correctly, the receptacle is ,(has to be) 19 feet above the machine in the rafters of the roof of the building. That after the plug (needs to be 60 amp) will then drop down to a 60 amp disconnect which will stand alone. This is required by the saftey guy so you can turn off the machine before entering a fenced in area, then it will have another cord (6ag SO cord) going from the disconnect mounted to the bending machine. Sorry I didn't get the service/branch terminology correct.

You could do that, I would not.

I would drop a pendent down from above with a receptacle hanging from it at waist height. Then a cord from there to the machine.

The plug can serve as the disconnecting means.

Check out Meltric for plugs.

 

[Tonybrzez]

No reason you cannot run some kind of raceway down from the ceiling to the disconnect switch. Put the receptacle in a wall of the disconnect and run cord from there if it fits. If not run conduit to a junction box closer to the machine and install the receptacle there, and then cord from there to the machine. I would be inclined to use a locking type plug and receptacle.

Incidentally, you could use a piece of strut that is listed as raceway from the ceiling down to the floor and run your vertical wires in that.

Nope they don't want that. They want nothing mounted to the ceiling or the floor. No disconnect mounted to a wall, there is no wall, that's 100 feet away, no receptacle mounted to anything but the roof. no "raceway down from the ceiling". They wanna be able to move this 20 foot long 12,000 pound machine around the floor, 3 feet this way or 4 feet that way in order to save fractions of a second from operators to take an extra step or two. I know, it makes no sense. They want nothing but a cord (again 60 amps of 480 3 phase) hanging from the 20 foot ceiling and unknown to them I have to also have 110 for the computer for the PLC, the Cat-5 Ethernet, and a one inch air supply. All on cords and hoses so I can move this 6 ton 20 foot long machine around the floor like a vacuum cleaner. All to possibly save .0005 seconds. Again nothing mounted to a floor or wall anywhere.

 

[petersonra]

Nope they don't want that. They want nothing mounted to the ceiling or the floor. No disconnect mounted to a wall, there is no wall, that's 100 feet away, no receptacle mounted to anything but the roof. no "raceway down from the ceiling". They wanna be able to move this 20 foot long 12,000 pound machine around the floor, 3 feet this way or 4 feet that way in order to save fractions of a second from operators to take an extra step or two. I know, it makes no sense. They want nothing but a cord (again 60 amps of 480 3 phase) hanging from the 20 foot ceiling and unknown to them I have to also have 110 for the computer for the PLC, the Cat-5 Ethernet, and a one inch air supply. All on cords and hoses so I can move this 6 ton 20 foot long machine around the floor like a vacuum cleaner. All to possibly save .0005 seconds. Again nothing mounted to a floor or wall anywhere.

it is their money and you get paid by the hour.

 

[zbang]

Sorry I didn't get the service/branch terminology correct.

Look at the definitions in article 100- service has a very specific meaning, as does branch circuit, and utilization equipment. People here can be very picky about using the correct terms .

 

[jumper]

Look at the definitions in article 100- service has a very specific meaning, as does branch circuit, and utilization equipment. People here can be very picky about using the correct terms .

Oh yeah. We is a bunch of hard cases, that's for sure.:happyyes:

 

[Sierrasparky]

Nope they don't want that. They want nothing mounted to the ceiling or the floor. No disconnect mounted to a wall, there is no wall, that's 100 feet away, no receptacle mounted to anything but the roof. no "raceway down from the ceiling". They wanna be able to move this 20 foot long 12,000 pound machine around the floor, 3 feet this way or 4 feet that way in order to save fractions of a second from operators to take an extra step or two. I know, it makes no sense. They want nothing but a cord (again 60 amps of 480 3 phase) hanging from the 20 foot ceiling and unknown to them I have to also have 110 for the computer for the PLC, the Cat-5 Ethernet, and a one inch air supply. All on cords and hoses so I can move this 6 ton 20 foot long machine around the floor like a vacuum cleaner. All to possibly save .0005 seconds. Again nothing mounted to a floor or wall anywhere.

it is their money and you get paid by the hour.

Exactly!

Look , you can use cord for the final hook-up from a receptacle. You say there is a fenced off area. You can pipe down to the fenced off area to a Disco. Nuff said. Or you can let the building inspector weigh in. as I assume this requires a permit.

 

[Tonybrzez]

Exactly!

You can pipe down to the fenced off area to a Disco. Nuff said.

No I said. No pipe hanging down to nothing. A cord and that's it. It's like a casting foundry on an extension cord

 

[Tonybrzez]

Look at the definitions in article 100- service has a very specific meaning, as does branch circuit, and utilization equipment. People here can be very picky about using the correct terms .

"terms" are a definition of the intrest and time of a bank loan. "Terminology" is the description of wording. Be a little more specific next time

 

[kwired]

Look at the definitions in article 100- service has a very specific meaning, as does branch circuit, and utilization equipment. People here can be very picky about using the correct terms .

Well using the correct terms sometimes makes a definite difference in what code sections will apply.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

No I said. No pipe hanging down to nothing. A cord and that's it. It's like a casting foundry on an extension cord

Tony you cannot let the company dictate the rules. Because they don't want something does not mean that you should do what they are asking. It is fine if it is compliant but if not then tell them you can't do it their way

 

[zbang]

"terms" are a definition of the intrest and time of a bank loan. "Terminology" is the description of wording. Be a little more specific next time

Of course, one definition of terms as a noun--

a word or phrase used to describe a thing or to express a concept, especially in a particular kind of language or branch of study.

another is--

a word or expression that has a precise meaning in some uses or is peculiar to a science, art, profession, or subject

but we need not split too many hairs here :lol:. The financial usage might come before or after the above, depending on the dictionary used.

 

[ActionDave]

Tony you cannot let the company dictate the rules. Because they don't want something does not mean that you should do what they are asking. It is fine if it is compliant but if not then tell them you can't do it their way

If Tony is an independent contractor then I would agree. If he is an employee then I don't think it's his call as long as there is no immediate hazzard. A flexible cord dropped from the ceiling is not.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Exactly!

Look , you can use cord for the final hook-up from a receptacle. You say there is a fenced off area. You can pipe down to the fenced off area to a Disco. Nuff said. Or you can let the building inspector weigh in. as I assume this requires a permit.

No I said. No pipe hanging down to nothing. A cord and that's it. It's like a casting foundry on an extension cord

You can't substitute a cord for permanent wiring.
This is 480 for god sake. I would not want the to be the installer when someone get hurt.

Your bosses are idiots and that kinda makes you one if you follow their idiot demands.

As I said earlier , let the inspector tell them no and you are out of the loop.