code section help

[JOHNEO99]

hmmm...

('02)

Not sure what you mean "it doesnt say project the front surface of the plate or the back"....the NEC does say "project from faceplates".

I'm still not seeing how you are attempting to use the '05 for an '02 situation.

The '05 NECH has the following commentary after the new exceptions (BTW, commentary is NOT enforceable):



While commentary is just that - I don't see how it helps you...even IF this install was under the '05.





Both the '02 and '05 NECH have the following commentary after 406.4(D):


Now that makes sense doesn't it?
At some point in time, the plates could be switched to metallic plates and the end user could be at risk.

Because I am projecting past the back of the plate with the face of the receptacle with insulating material which is all I have to do according to 02'.

I believe it complys with both

 

[acrwc10]

Not that it *should* make a difference, but are the devices and plates from the same manufac.?

This is the only situation I see as possible, other then if you are using plates with captive screws that have a little paper tab to keep the screw from falling out before install. Removing the tab can bring a plate flush but it doesn't sound like that is the issue. I agree with Celtic you have different trim plates then receptacles! It also seems you are very argumentative about how none of the suggestions made will help. Maybe you need to contact the manufacturer if of the receptacles and plates if you have done everything perfectly and it doesn't meet code. I think they may have an answer that would help, and they do respond quickly.

 

[JOHNEO99]

This is the only situation I see as possible, other then if you are using plates with captive screws that have a little paper tab to keep the screw from falling out before install. Removing the tab can bring a plate flush but it doesn't sound like that is the issue. I agree with Celtic you have different trim plates then receptacles! It also seems you are very argumentative about how none of the suggestions made will help. Maybe you need to contact the manufacturer if of the receptacles and plates if you have done everything perfectly and it doesn't meet code. I think they may have an answer that would help, and they do respond quickly.

Both P & S product and this will probably be addressed.


We are talking about 1/64"


You cant even see it til you put your face right up to the plate.


Its really frustrating, this same guy wont let me put a breakfast or dining receptacle on with a snall appliance circuit.

 

[stickboy1375]

One thing I would try is installing a plate on an uninstalled receptacle, if it looks good then you have an installation problem...

 

[hillbilly]

"Its really frustrating, this same guy wont let me put a breakfast or dining receptacle on with a snall appliance circuit".

Sounds like the inspector has a h___ o_ for you.

The breakfast and dining room receptacles are required to be on a small appliance circuit...21052(B)(1)

Are you using Nylon (unbreakable) plates? They bend too easily (IMO) and will not "pull" a receptacle into place.
steve

 

[ryan_618]

Regarding nuts vs. washers, I've used both, and I don't have a preference either way. What I used to do was save the little plaster ears that I would cut off receptacles (when using cut-in boxes) and save them for later use as #6 or #8 washers.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

John,

Because I am projecting past the back of the plate with the face of the receptacle with insulating material which is all I have to do according to 02'.

Project from means it must extend out in front of the plate. If the receptacle face is recessed from the front of the plate, you are not in compliance with the 2002 code.
Don

 

[don_resqcapt19]

2005 406.4 d exp. 2 gives the correct verbage and allows my installation and this inspector knows it.

Exception #2 only applies to a special type of faceplace that actually covers the face of the receptacle itself. The only holes in this type of face plate are the 2 slots for the hot and grounded conductor, the opeing for the U-ground, and the one for the faceplate attachment screw.
Don

 

[JOHNEO99]

Exception #2 only applies to a special type of faceplace that actually covers the face of the receptacle itself. The only holes in this type of face plate are the 2 slots for the hot and grounded conductor, the opeing for the U-ground, and the one for the faceplate attachment screw.
Don

How did you come up with that Don?

 

[celtic]

How did you come up with that Don?

I came up with in the commentary following the exceptions (see post #32)

Two exceptions have been added to 406.4(D) in the 2005 Code. The first allows the use of listed kits that include the receptacle and a nonmetallic faceplate and that have been evaluated by a recognized testing laboratory to ensure that sufficient blade contact is achieved by the attachment plug when inserted in the receptacle. In addition, the faceplate would not fit the standard style receptacle. The second new exception permits the use of a faceplate with an integral receptacle to cover the face of the box-mounted receptacle. These listed faceplates can be installed with any properly installed, flush-mounted device.

I don't see where it says "... Exception #2 only applies to a special type of faceplace..." ....
Some input Don?

 

[celtic]

One thing I would try is installing a plate on an uninstalled receptacle, if it looks good then you have an installation problem...

Talk about K.I.S.S. !

Perfect solution to the question:
Is it an installer problem or a manufac. problem?

Good call Stickman

 

[don_resqcapt19]

John,

How did you come up with that Don?

Look at the words in the exception.

Exception No. 2: Listed nonmetallic faceplates that cover the receptacle face to a maximum thickness of 1 mm (0.040 in.) shall be permitted.

The proposal to add this exception to the code was proposed by the manufactuter of this product. Without the exception this product would not be code compliant.
Don

 

[JOHNEO99]

Talk about K.I.S.S. !

Perfect solution to the question:
Is it an installer problem or a manufac. problem?

Good call Stickman

Tried this. The plate just sits flush with the face of the receptacle. But when installed in the wall the plate bows ever so slightly on the opposite side of the plate screw (by the width of say construction paper).

I resovled this issue with the inspector by agreeing to use foam gaskets behind the plate which seems stupid to me but solves my problem.

And I dont have to inspect/repair about 900 receptacles.


This same inspector tried giving me crap today about how far back my romex boxes were set back behind the drywall. He told me they also should be flush with the surface of the drywall because it is combustible and I argued for about one hour til my apprentice brought my codebook and I showed him 314.20. Man this guy is obsessed or something.

 

[stickboy1375]

Tried this. The plate just sits flush with the face of the receptacle. But when installed in the wall the plate bows ever so slightly on the opposite side of the plate screw (by the width of say construction paper).

I resovled this issue with the inspector by agreeing to use foam gaskets behind the plate which seems stupid to me but solves my problem.

And I dont have to inspect/repair about 900 receptacles.


This same inspector tried giving me crap today about how far back my romex boxes were set back behind the drywall. He told me they also should be flush with the surface of the drywall because it is combustible and I argued for about one hour til my apprentice brought my codebook and I showed him 314.20. Man this guy is obsessed or something.

314.20 only allows 1/4 of an inch... so guess he has time to remove all the plates and measure?

 

[celtic]

...... I argued for about one hour til my apprentice brought my codebook .....

You need to have chat with your helper....
j/k

Man this guy is obsessed or something.

I vote for the "or something".


I had an inspection today....EI says, that box looks like it's over 6' from the door (we were in a resi. bedroom)... I say, well if I move it over one stud (grabbing a tape measure) it'll be 6'8" ...I know the man was correct - I laid the room out badly due to others debris all over the place, not his(EI's) problem.... he's says "Ok, I'll accept that".
Easy, done, no debates. He's a good inspector, knows his business...and knows a "felony" from a "misdemeanor" ...but I will be adding some recept.s that weren't on the print... I knew the EI would pick up on it ....the GC can pay heavy for that add

 

[JOHNEO99]

You need to have chat with your helper....
j/k


Darn green horn

 

[ryan_618]

This exception is being removed in the 2008.

 

[celtic]

The proposal to add this exception to the code was proposed by the manufactuter of this product. Without the exception this product would not be code compliant.
Don

Thanks Don.

This exception is being removed in the 2008.

Why...is that company going out of business?


(Pertaining to how manufac.s "drive" the code)

 

[mw777]

WE ALL KNOW HOW TO INSTALL THESE BUT THERE IS NO TOLERENCE WITH THESES PLATES. IF YOU PUT A PLATE ON TO THE DEVICE IN YOUR HAND THEY JUST BARELY SIT FLUSH WHICH THEY ARE DESIGNED TO. THE 32" TO 64" IS BARELY NOTICABLE TO THE EYE TIL YOU GET WITHIN 3' TO VIEW. ANY BOW OR IMPERFECTION IN THE DRYWALL AFFECTS THIS DEPTH OF FACE PLATE.THIS INSPECTOR IS CRAZY. I BELIEVE THEY CORRECTED THIS SECTION OF THE CODE IN 05' FOR PLASTIC PLATES? ANY BODY KNOW?

JOHN

I was going to ask you if you tried the plates on a rec not it the wall but it sounds like you have, I've had trouble with some plastic plates where the center is beefed up not to break at the screw and some companies make the support to tight, it could be a bad batch you got ahold of, maybe the die at the plant was sized just out a little bit, I would try another plate, it worked for me, years ago i worked at a plastic parts company and their not always perfect

 

[romeo]

code section help

If your looking for a base for your recepts, I use 1/4-20 nuts or wrap scrap wire around a screwdriver like a spring and cut into desired lengths and use like a bushing. This will stiffen your recept to the box. In addition, if your box is to far back .... what dennis said.

I thought I was the only one that used bare # 14 wire and made a spring out of it but I used an awl not a screw driver