code violations on a solar installation

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lbwireman

lbwireman

Senior Member
Location
Long Beach, CA
This is a project that we were called in to fix after the job was red tagged for being done by another EC without a permit. The H.O. is a 72 Y.O. widow who is retired after a 30 year nursing career. The "installation" was performed by a licensed CA EC who neglected to inform her prior to the installation (and getting paid) that there was absolutely no code compliant way to connect the new system to the existing FPE SEP. There were not enough available spaces.

The cost of meeting all of the POCO's and the city B&P departments requirements to complete this installation in a code compliant manner will be ~$10K, which the H.O. certainly did not anticipate. (e.g. Permitting, SEP upgrade, 104' of new 3' deep, 3" PVC U/G service lateral (we provide the excavation, conduit & backfill. POCO provides the conductors), etc.)

These requirements/costs should have been known to the EC who did the solar system installation prior to beginning the installation. The H.O. should have been made aware of these additional necessary upgrades and their costs before they sold her a "solar system-in-a-box", installed it and left her to deal with code enforcement officials.

As soon as they understood that our company had no connection to the people who had done this un-permitted and shoddy installation, the B&S and POCO folks became very helpful and cooperative.

Now for my question: I've found 5 code violations so far ('08 NEC) in the limited time I've had to research this.
408.3(A)(2), 408.54, 240.24(A) & (B), 240.33, 240.81. I'm sure there are many more and any help pointing them out would be greatly appreciated. It's a good cause. She's a nice lady and the guys who did this are worse than hacks or trunk slammers. Thanks.
Sean
 
Sierrasparky

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
It looks like it is part of the Meter/combo. They added a bus and breakers. and no way of turning them off without removing the screw on cover.
This guy should be reported to the CSLB. The'll take care of him.
 
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SeanD

Member
More Photos

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Photos of inside the inverter wiring box, inside the AC disconnect and where the wires from the ac disconnect enter the main service would be helpful. Grounding and bonding are probably going to be areas where you find issues.

BTW pay attention to how the cover on the inverter wiring box comes off, getting those covers back on can be a pain if you don't have things lined up correctly.

This kinda stuff upsets me. I agree this guy should be reported to the CSLB.
 
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ceb58

ceb58

Senior Member
Location
Raeford, NC
You should first start by helping her report the EC to the proper authorities. I do not know about CAL. but here the licensing board can order the contractor to repay the money and if they dont they can,have and will see you get sent to prison.
 
Sierrasparky

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
ceb58 said:
You should first start by helping her report the EC to the proper authorities. I do not know about CAL. but here the licensing board can order the contractor to repay the money and if they dont they can,have and will see you get sent to prison.
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Oh the CSLB can do far worse.
1) the owner can request an attachment of bond.If not dealt with you will loose your license
2) they can charge you with crimes. Fine this guy. suspend revoke a license. It can get ugly.

All the customer need to do is initiate a complaint. Then they'll be all over this guy.
Any how back to what this EC did wrong.
How did this guy do a grid tie system in CA without a permit and without the POCO's permission?
 
N

newenergy

Member
Sierrasparky said:
Oh the CSLB can do far worse.
1) the owner can request an attachment of bond.If not dealt with you will loose your license
2) they can charge you with crimes. Fine this guy. suspend revoke a license. It can get ugly.

All the customer need to do is initiate a complaint. Then they'll be all over this guy.
Any how back to what this EC did wrong.
How did this guy do a grid tie system in CA without a permit and without the POCO's permission?
Click to expand...

I don't want to say this is the biggest sin, since it's not a safety issue, but it's pretty big since CA has a rebate program which would give the owner back a substantial amount of money. It seems unlikely that the customer isn't expecting a rebate, so I guess the contractor isn't too worried about them losing out on thousands of dollars. (not that OP won't be able to fix things and allow them to claim the rebate, but perhaps at a lower amount since it is decreasing as time goes by)

Also, instead of service upgrade, is a line side tap feasible here?
 
lbwireman

lbwireman

Senior Member
Location
Long Beach, CA
George Stolz said:
Did they mount different panelboard guts into that L-shaped gutter to add GE breakers? :-?
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I'd like to begin by thanking you for re-opening this thread. That said, the short answer to your question is, Yup.

If you look closely at the closeup you can see the two lugs, one between the two GE breakers and the edge of another at the top of the upper GE breaker. These lugs are fed from a 50A DPDT FPE breaker in the top (horizontal) row of breakers. The two ungrounded conductors between the FPE breaker and the lugs are the only thing supporting the whole scabbed in GE assembly (buss segment, breakers, etc.). Do you see any possible violations I might want to look at in the '08 code, in addition to the ones I listed in my OP?
 
lbwireman

lbwireman

Senior Member
Location
Long Beach, CA
Sierrasparky said:
.
Any how back to what this EC did wrong.
How did this guy do a grid tie system in CA without a permit and without the POCO's permission?
Click to expand...

'pears to have been a "drive by" of some sort.:mad: Interestingly, there seem to have been 2 companies involved, one (not an EC) appears to have sold the installation, installed the panel array, inverter/DC disco combo and AC disco, then had a licensed EC come in and do the final connection between the AC disco and the SEP shown in the pic. In any event, they appear to have "just done it". Then code enforcement got involved, we got called by the HO because of some previous work we had done for her and the rest.......
 
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Sierrasparky

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
lbwireman said:
No. Due to several factors, the most significant being that the POCO, due to the existance of the new solar system, wants a new upgraded service lateral installed (see OP).
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Really under what grounds. The service end of the meter was not touched. I really don't think they can force the upgrade. if the meter was not removed and the service portion was not tampered.
 
e57

e57

Senior Member
Location
San Francisco, CA
Sierrasparky said:
Really under what grounds. The service end of the meter was not touched. I really don't think they can force the upgrade. if the meter was not removed and the service portion was not tampered.
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Simply if enough damage was done to the original service that may be beyond just removing said detritus/solor crap. Since many changes in the POCO rules have changed since that FPE was put in, getting a green tag would depend on what could be repaired from the original service - which could be a real hunt for obsolete parts at this point.... And that would be just to put them back at the original (existing) service.

SeanD said:
This kinda stuff upsets me. I agree this guy should be reported to the CSLB.
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My first glance at the thread title raised my hair - I've seen WAY TOO MANY screwed up solar installs by hacks entering the trade from the "roofing" industry. The CSLB has to do something about these idiots and the loop-hole the created allowing it, and allowing those capitolizing on the infant industry of green snake oil salesmen to prey on the average schmuck - doing things like this.... But if it was an "EC" (a C-10) they should be strung up and quartered.... ;)
 
Sierrasparky

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
I still think a challenge by to the poco or the B dept.. The EC did not modify the cover and all the components within look like they can be put back. This is one of those pick your battle things. I have yet to see a Local building code that says" if you screw up you cannot fix it you hav to rip it out and start over" . The panel is still installed in the wall. Allthat was done inccorectly is a couple of breakers were installed incorrectly violating the products UL. Remove those breakers and it's back to square 1.
The meter was not tampered with. I'd say the POCO is stepping too far.
I would provide a code complaint repair in writing and see where it goes.
Pay the double permit fee penalty and call it good.

It's always nice to do a upgrade to a panel. Will the HO go for that? The breakers are old and in my opinion new ones are a bit safer.
 
W

wireguru

Senior Member
the sad fact is, this is going to become very common. There are solar companies springing up left and right here in so cal, and I am willing to bet a good portion of them do work like this. Homeowners are generally idiots and will believe whatever the solar salesman tells them since he is in a white shirt with his companies name on it. 'you dont need a permit since we're just hooking it to the existing panel' I really hope the local building departments nip this in the bud before it becomes an epedemic. Illegal solar install should = meter pulled until removed. The power companies need to be sending an insert with the utility bills to educate homeowners.
 
N

newenergy

Member
wireguru said:
the sad fact is, this is going to become very common. There are solar companies springing up left and right here in so cal, and I am willing to bet a good portion of them do work like this. Homeowners are generally idiots and will believe whatever the solar salesman tells them since he is in a white shirt with his companies name on it. 'you dont need a permit since we're just hooking it to the existing panel' I really hope the local building departments nip this in the bud before it becomes an epedemic. Illegal solar install should = meter pulled until removed. The power companies need to be sending an insert with the utility bills to educate homeowners.
Click to expand...

I'm a solar installer and I do a lot of subcontracting. The job I'm currently working on has a very old pushbutton breaker panel which is inadequate and the job was sold with no consideration of what would have to be done there. In this case I'm making sure the job is going to be done correctly - the best that I can, but I can definitely see other cases where the sub would have been afraid to lose the business, too cheap or broke to either do it right or walk away, and/or maybe not know any better.

The building departments have been reasonable on top of things; more often requiring things that aren't in the code than overlooking things. This job seems to have been done w/o permits at all.
 
Sierrasparky

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
newenergy said:
The building departments have been reasonable on top of things; more often requiring things that aren't in the code than overlooking things. This job seems to have been done w/o permits at all.
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How can requireing things that are not in the code be reasonable?
That is outrageous to me. I have a pretty good repour with my building dept. However I would not allow them to require anything that is not on the plans or in the code. I'm sorry. I do my best to do what is right and I expect the same from the building Dept. Who is supposed to pay for those extra things anyhow?
 
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