Cold water ground

Status
Not open for further replies.
D

Daja7

Senior Member
question about the 5 foot rule. We did a service upgrade and tied the cold water ground as usual. The inspector failed because he said it is not within 5 feet of where it enters the home. The water comes in the front of the home (old home) but runs below grade in crawl then emerges on other side of home where we attached the ground. It doesn't seem reasonable that we would have to dig in the crawl to find the pipe. ( could be several feet deep). Is there a definition in the code that covers this? To me it is common sense but I have been wrong before.
 
The inspector may be applying out of context the rule for service wiring that states that under the footprint of the building, even under non-concrete fill, is inside the building.
There is no corresponding rule for water pipes, and it seems logical that where it enters the building is where it is accessible as it penetrates the building envelope. That could be either where it goes above ground in through the wall or where it enters a basement wall.
It seems like a judgement call though.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 
Daja7 said:
question about the 5 foot rule. We did a service upgrade and tied the cold water ground as usual. The inspector failed because he said it is not within 5 feet of where it enters the home. The water comes in the front of the home (old home) but runs below grade in crawl then emerges on other side of home where we attached the ground. It doesn't seem reasonable that we would have to dig in the crawl to find the pipe. ( could be several feet deep). Is there a definition in the code that covers this? To me it is common sense but I have been wrong before.
Click to expand...

I would be surprised if that pipe is more than 18" deep.

AFAIK, the rule does not apply to underground pipe, but rather in this case the five feet starts where the pipe emerges above ground into the crawlspace- the soil beneath isn't part of the structure.
 
I went looking in Article 250 (2011 NEC) for the requirement that the GEC or bonding jumper to a metallic water pipe has to be within 5' of the entrance to the building, to check the exact wording. But all I came up with is 250.68(C), which says that if you want to use the metallic water pipe as a conductor to interconnect electrodes with bonding jumpers, then you can only use the section that is within 5' of the entrance to the building.

That means that if you aren't using the metallic water pipe to interconnect electrodes, then the GEC or bonding jumper to connect to the water pipe electrode itself can be anywhere on the metallic water piping system, as long as it is made electrically continuous with the underground portion of the metallic water pipe per 250.52(A)(1). Or did I miss some other requirement?

Cheers, Wayne
 
Daja7 said:
question about the 5 foot rule. We did a service upgrade and tied the cold water ground as usual. The inspector failed because he said it is not within 5 feet of where it enters the home. The water comes in the front of the home (old home) but runs below grade in crawl then emerges on other side of home where we attached the ground. It doesn't seem reasonable that we would have to dig in the crawl to find the pipe. ( could be several feet deep). Is there a definition in the code that covers this? To me it is common sense but I have been wrong before.
Click to expand...


IMO if the pipe is underground how it gets to where it enters the house is irrelevant.
 
Actually it fulfills science before it penetrates the mind of an unskilled electrical inspector.
I challenge inspector's all the time. Not rudely, but kind of throwing things at them that they can't answer, like why do they count 2 travelers as current carrying conductors (for box fill) when only one carries current at a time. (I call it control wiring) control wiring isn't counted as current carrying conductors because when one is the other isn't. They usually can't answer why.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
 
Daniel malack said:
Not rudely, but kind of throwing things at them that they can't answer, like why do they count 2 travelers as current carrying conductors (for box fill) when only one carries current at a time. (I call it control wiring) control wiring isn't counted as current carrying conductors because when one is the other isn't. They usually can't answer why.
Click to expand...


What does being a CCC have to do with box fill?
 
Daniel malack said:
Everything! Don't you count current carrying conductors for box fill?

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
For box fill you only count largest EGC once, but you count everything else.

For conductor ampacity adjustments you wouldn't count both travelers of a three way circuit as only one ever carries current at a any given time.
 
Getting back to the OP, the ground clamp on the water main has to be "serviceable" IMHO. If you can physically get into the crawl space to install the clamp then I think the "within 5'" rule would apply. If not, I don't see how you can be compelled to place the water pipe clamp there.
 
goldstar said:
Getting back to the OP, the ground clamp on the water main has to be "serviceable" IMHO. If you can physically get into the crawl space to install the clamp then I think the "within 5'" rule would apply. If not, I don't see how you can be compelled to place the water pipe clamp there.
Click to expand...
What if you are a small person and can get into said crawlspace but I am a large person and can not?

Let me say there are spaces I crawled into 25 years ago that today I am not going to even if I wanted to;)
 
kwired said:
What if you are a small person and can get into said crawlspace but I am a large person and can not?

Let me say there are spaces I crawled into 25 years ago that today I am not going to even if I wanted to;)
Click to expand...
I'm with you 100%. I'm no longer a small person anymore myself. Can an EI compel you to hire a "small person" just so you can get the pipe clamp on the water line within 5' of the entry ? Is the EI going to get himself into the crawl space to see if you actually installed the clamp correctly onto the pipe ?
 
goldstar said:
the "within 5'" rule
Click to expand...
What "within 5' rule"? The only 5' rule I found in Article 250 was if you want to use the water pipe as a conductor to interconnect other electrodes. If you are just running a single GEC/bonding jumper to it with a single ground clamp, then you can attach that ground clamp anywhere that is electrically continuous with the underground portion.

Cheers, Wayne
 
Not sure where the 5' rule came from. I live in a lake community and where houses are located lakeside many of the water meters for city supplied water are located in the street below grade. We have to bond the water line within 5' of where it enters the house (wherever and whenever practical).
 
goldstar said:
Not sure where the 5' rule came from. I live in a lake community and where houses are located lakeside many of the water meters for city supplied water are located in the street below grade. We have to bond the water line within 5' of where it enters the house (wherever and whenever practical).
Click to expand...
When I started in this trade you could land the GEC anywhere on a metal water piping system. I believe it was about 1993 or 1996 that they changed it to within 5 feet of entrance. Main reason was there was becoming more and more repairs and replacements on the water systems with non metallic piping. before the 5 foot rule you still had to bond around water meters or other commonly separated components to assure continuity when those items were separated.

Note this 5 foot rule only applies if the underground piping qualifies as a grounding electrode. If not a grounding electrode you still have to bond interior metallic water piping systems, but they can be bonded at any convenient location that remains accessible.
 
kwired said:
I believe it was about 1993 or 1996 that they changed it to within 5 feet of entrance.
Click to expand...
The only 5 foot rule I find in 2011 Article 250 is 250.68(C)(1). That section only applies to using the metallic water pipe as a conductor for the interconnection of other electrodes. So as long as all your other electrodes are connected to the GES independent of the metallic water pipe, there's no 5 foot rule that I can see.

Cheers, Wayne
 
wwhitney said:
The only 5 foot rule I find in 2011 Article 250 is 250.68(C)(1). That section only applies to using the metallic water pipe as a conductor for the interconnection of other electrodes. So as long as all your other electrodes are connected to the GES independent of the metallic water pipe, there's no 5 foot rule that I can see.

Cheers, Wayne
Click to expand...
I see what you are getting at now that I read it.

Read (C) and (C)(1) carefully.

Quote from 2014, but from what I can tell there was no change from 2011:

Grounding electrode conductors and bonding jumpers shall be permitted to be connected at the following locations and used to extend the connection to an electrode(s):

(1) Interior metal water piping located not more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall be permitted to be used as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system.
Click to expand...

The electrode is 10 feet or more pipe in the ground, the first five feet inside the structure is permitted to be used to extend the connection to the electrode, as well as permitted to attach additional bonding jumpers to other electrodes.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top