sparks1
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
Where does it say in code that wires should be taped for different voltage systems such as black ,red, blue for 120/208 and brown,orange, yellow for 277/480.
Colour Code
- Thread starter sparks1
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Colour Code
See NEC-2005 310.12 for required identification.
As Roger said, it doesn't.
See NEC-2005 310.12 for required identification.
As Roger said, it doesn't.
sparks1
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Colour Code
I'm surprized that the Code doesn't cover how ungrounded wires should be taped in the field.
Art 310.12 (c) uses the word "clearly distinguishable from grounded and grounding conductors", but doesn't mention how phases of different voltages should be color coded.
This could mean any color tape could be used!
In retrospect Art 200 devotes an entire article as to how the grounded conductor should be identified.
I'm surprized that the Code doesn't cover how ungrounded wires should be taped in the field.
Art 310.12 (c) uses the word "clearly distinguishable from grounded and grounding conductors", but doesn't mention how phases of different voltages should be color coded.
This could mean any color tape could be used!
In retrospect Art 200 devotes an entire article as to how the grounded conductor should be identified.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Colour Code
There is far too much stuff out there that was installed without the application of a standard, required color code. To create a color code would not now enhance safety. To rely upon the previous installer's use of the same color code you use would be a step in an unsafe direction.
Thank goodness for that! I would not like to see an inspection fail for no better reason than the wrong colors were used. More importantly, from a safety perspective, I would not want a person to say, "I turned off the 480 circuit, and that wire is the color of a 480 circuit, so I can safely disconnect that wire."
There is far too much stuff out there that was installed without the application of a standard, required color code. To create a color code would not now enhance safety. To rely upon the previous installer's use of the same color code you use would be a step in an unsafe direction.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Colour Code
There is a change for the 2005 code that will require additional identification.
Don
There is a change for the 2005 code that will require additional identification.
The same wording appears in 215.12(C) for feeders. Note that the requirement is only to identify by system, not by phase and system, so all of the 120/208 ungrounded conductors could be black and all of the 277/480 conductors could be red.
Don
brian john
Senior Member
- Location
- Kilmarnock, Va
- Occupation
- Retired after 52 years in the trade.
Re: Colour Code
For my money keep different voltages different colors and for gosh sakes keep the rotation right.
The number of times we see incorrect rotation with the correct colors, or electricians wiring BYO, OYB, YOB and all swearing the code backs their method. ROTATION, ROTATION, ROTATION
For my money keep different voltages different colors and for gosh sakes keep the rotation right.
The number of times we see incorrect rotation with the correct colors, or electricians wiring BYO, OYB, YOB and all swearing the code backs their method. ROTATION, ROTATION, ROTATION
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Colour Code
We use BOY but what has that got to do with rotation?
My phase meter has black red and white leads.
Brian I do not understand there is no 'correct' color / rotation method.
We use BOY but what has that got to do with rotation?
My phase meter has black red and white leads.
Re: Colour Code
Allright Bob , I knew the black white red was still out there.
Anyway, color has nothing to do with rotation, but rotation is what you need to keep things running right. You can paint, tape, label 1,2,3 or A, B, C all the way down to the motor leads when you first install the equipment. If the motor runs backwards, reverse two leads. Where, doesn't mater, you'll do it in the most convenient spot and will you change your tape or numbers, or labels? (probably not) Your electrical system may not of been the same as the factory that test ran your equipment so there is no telling which way it will run.
The entire reason for taping or labeling is for identifying either the system or individually which wire you grab at the other end of that massive conduit run that matches up with the one in the power panel, controller, motor or whatever. That's the whole reason for labeling.
Allright Bob
, I knew the black white red was still out there.Anyway, color has nothing to do with rotation, but rotation is what you need to keep things running right. You can paint, tape, label 1,2,3 or A, B, C all the way down to the motor leads when you first install the equipment. If the motor runs backwards, reverse two leads. Where, doesn't mater, you'll do it in the most convenient spot and will you change your tape or numbers, or labels? (probably not) Your electrical system may not of been the same as the factory that test ran your equipment so there is no telling which way it will run.
The entire reason for taping or labeling is for identifying either the system or individually which wire you grab at the other end of that massive conduit run that matches up with the one in the power panel, controller, motor or whatever. That's the whole reason for labeling.
sparks1
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Colour Code
Many time an older jobs I've had to correctly retape wires after checking the voltage and finding the wrong phasing colors.
We use Blk,red,blu,and brn,org,yel as a standard to identify different system voltages on new work and we correctly retape the violations on old work after the voltage has been established
Charlie I would have to disagree with you sir,in my opinion, using this as a "Standard" enhances over all safety.
Many time an older jobs I've had to correctly retape wires after checking the voltage and finding the wrong phasing colors.
We use Blk,red,blu,and brn,org,yel as a standard to identify different system voltages on new work and we correctly retape the violations on old work after the voltage has been established
Charlie I would have to disagree with you sir,in my opinion, using this as a "Standard" enhances over all safety.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Colour Code
Boss we label our conductors throughout what ever building we are working in.
That said from the first connection to the utility there is no telling if what we landed on "A" and marked brown is actually phase A or will produce clockwise rotation.
The only thing certain is brown at our service disconnect is the same phase as brown at a branch circuit.
Still glad the color scheme is voluntary.
Boss we label our conductors throughout what ever building we are working in.
That said from the first connection to the utility there is no telling if what we landed on "A" and marked brown is actually phase A or will produce clockwise rotation.
The only thing certain is brown at our service disconnect is the same phase as brown at a branch circuit.
Still glad the color scheme is voluntary.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Colour Code
The choice of colors up to the installer.
Again I ask what is 'correct'?
The choice of colors up to the installer.
sparks1
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Colour Code
Iwire ,
There is no code standard. The color code should be to identify the system voltages not the rotation.
Iwire ,
There is no code standard. The color code should be to identify the system voltages not the rotation.
sparks1
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Colour Code
The means of identification shall be permitted to be by separate color coding.
But it doesn't say what color code we should use.
The means of identification shall be permitted to be by separate color coding.
But it doesn't say what color code we should use.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Colour Code
You had said;
If I get to a building that used pink, purple and red for 480 volt it is not a violation and I see no reason to change it to what I am used to (BOY).
I should just follow the scheme that is existing.
The 2005 code only requires identification by voltage system not by phase any longer as it had for multiwire branch circuits.
So now someone may use 3 purple wires for 480 and 3 yellow wires for 208.
Using a meter to verify voltage is how to enhance over all safety.
Just my opinion, Bob
I understand the rules
Correct, that is what I was getting at.
You had said;
What violation are you correcting?
If I get to a building that used pink, purple and red for 480 volt it is not a violation and I see no reason to change it to what I am used to (BOY).
I should just follow the scheme that is existing.
The 2005 code only requires identification by voltage system not by phase any longer as it had for multiwire branch circuits.
So now someone may use 3 purple wires for 480 and 3 yellow wires for 208.
But there is no standard, there is only what you are used to.
Using a meter to verify voltage is how to enhance over all safety.
Just my opinion, Bob
I understand the rules
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Colour Code
Bob,
Don
Bob,
What about 408.3(E)?
Don
sparks1
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Colour Code
Here in Massachusetts it is "standard practice" to use blk,red,blu to identifiy 120/208 and Brn,org,yel for 277/480.It may be different in other part of the country.
[ April 07, 2005, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: sparks1 ]
Here in Massachusetts it is "standard practice" to use blk,red,blu to identifiy 120/208 and Brn,org,yel for 277/480.It may be different in other part of the country.
[ April 07, 2005, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: sparks1 ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Colour Code
I don't arrange the bus bars.
Whatever conductor I land on the right side or front bus 'becomes' "A" from that point on.
The utility company does not provide me with a phase marked "A"
The right side bus of our service disconnect will be connected to the right side terminal pad at the utility transformer. If the power company made that one "A" I have no idea.
When needed I have seen the utility company swap elbows at the transformer to reverse the rotation to an entire building.
What about it?
I don't arrange the bus bars.
Whatever conductor I land on the right side or front bus 'becomes' "A" from that point on.
The utility company does not provide me with a phase marked "A"
The right side bus of our service disconnect will be connected to the right side terminal pad at the utility transformer. If the power company made that one "A" I have no idea.
When needed I have seen the utility company swap elbows at the transformer to reverse the rotation to an entire building.
sparks1
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Colour Code
brian john
Senior Member
- Location
- Kilmarnock, Va
- Occupation
- Retired after 52 years in the trade.
Re: Colour Code
My Point is that color is different based upon what the electrician uses, normally black red blue at 208/120 at 480/277, well Katie bar the door (at least in this area and many other areas I have worked in). But if you check for proper rotation color at the voltage you are working at means nothing.
For some reason (at least around here) generator techs use red, white, blue, now this may be from their own practices or from the rotation meters manufactures influence. I own 15-20 rotation meters almost all of them use the red white blue for A, B, C, go figure.
If we do a job I expect the rotation to be A, B, C throughout.
My Point is that color is different based upon what the electrician uses, normally black red blue at 208/120 at 480/277, well Katie bar the door (at least in this area and many other areas I have worked in). But if you check for proper rotation color at the voltage you are working at means nothing.
For some reason (at least around here) generator techs use red, white, blue, now this may be from their own practices or from the rotation meters manufactures influence. I own 15-20 rotation meters almost all of them use the red white blue for A, B, C, go figure.
If we do a job I expect the rotation to be A, B, C throughout.
- Status