Colour Code

[sparks1]

Re: Colour Code

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
so all of the 120/208 ungrounded conductors could be black and all of the 277/480 conductors could be red.
Don [/QB]

Does this mean they could all be purple. I think this needs to be standardized(BRB 120/208 , (BOY)277/480.

[ April 07, 2005, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: sparks1 ]

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Colour Code

Bob,
In my opinion that code section requires that when you connect your phase meter left to right or top to bottom on the bus bar, that the rotation must be ABC. The line side conductors must be rearranged to get this rotation.
Don

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Colour Code

Sparks,

Does this mean they could all be purple?

Yes. All of the conductors from one voltage system can be one color and the conductors from a second voltage system a different color.

I think this needs to be standardized(BRB 120/208 , (BOY)277/480.

Why?
Don

 

[69boss302]

Re: Colour Code

Why standardize. We had a customer once that we sent a rewound motor two. Simple three lead AC three phase 480 V motor. I got into massive trouble because I forgot to put the 1,2,3 on the leads and the customer hooked it up and it ran backwards. They weren't even smart enough to reverse two leads, because their standard said wire up 1 to 1, 2 to 2, and 3 to 3. And funny thing is if I mark 1, 2, 3, according to the building I'm in doesn't mean the next one will have to same order.

The only time phasing makes a difference is for 3 phase motor rotation. Reversed phases will not affect a computer, a light bulb, a transformer, furnaces, DC rectifiers, etc.....

The only reason (again) for identifying is to tell if it is from a different system or in that long run with 37 wires in it, which one is the same one on the other end. My electricians would use whatever tape they had in their possesion most of the time, why run back to the shop for Brown Orange or Yellow.

Plus if your taking something apart you should always list your markings down again anyway, you never know when some one may of reversed some leads.

I have a question for you Bob. Why would you have to reverse an entire building. Was the building spinning against the earths rotation

When needed I have seen the utility company swap elbows at the transformer to reverse the rotation to an entire building.

 

[iwire]

Re: Colour Code

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
Bob,
In my opinion that code section requires that when you connect your phase meter left to right or top to bottom on the bus bar, that the rotation must be ABC. The line side conductors must be rearranged to get this rotation.
Don

Having clockwise rotation will not tell us if utility phase 'A' is on the premise 'A' bus.

I am at a loss as to how I could truly comply with 408.3(E). I am open to ideas, I may be may be overlooking the obvious.

Just thinking outload here is there really a phase 'A' even at the generator?

They connections on a generator are marked 1, 2, 3, more or less.

Bob

 

[iwire]

Re: Colour Code

Originally posted by 69boss302:
I have a question for you Bob. Why would you have to reverse an entire building. Was the building spinning against the earths rotation

When needed I have seen the utility company swap elbows at the transformer to reverse the rotation to an entire building.

LOL

All in one night 4 different electrical contractors where replacing 3 separate services to one building while the power company was bringing in two new 13KV feeders to a customer owned sub station.

I got a rotation check from the power company and we hooked up our service.

A little while later the sub station kept shutting down, then the power company did something and it worked but my rotation had changed.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Colour Code

Bob,
I think that the code section is only calling for ABC rotation. There is only an "A" phase in relation to the utility system.
Don

 

[sparks1]

Re: Colour Code

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
Sparks,
.

I think this needs to be standardized(BRB 120/208 , (BOY)277/480.

Why?
Don

To clearly identify only the voltage systems we are working on.

This has noting to do with the phase rotation because the phase rotation can be anything you want it to be for any direction. If we all mark our wires using a uniform color Code it will eventually become less confusing and prevents dangerous working conditions for all of us who work in the industry.
The idea of not having the right color tape to do the job is no excuse!

[ April 07, 2005, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: sparks1 ]

 

[roger]

Re: Colour Code

Sparks1, BOY has already been taken by the NEC, (see 517.160) so we would have to use some other colors for 277Y/480 if a standardized rule went into effect.

Roger

[ April 07, 2005, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Colour Code

If we all mark our wires using a uniform color Code it will eventually become less confusing and prevents dangerous working conditions for all of us who work in the industry.

And everyone begins to rely on the standard color code and gets nailed because he used the color code in place of checking and tracing the wires.

 

[gndrod]

Re: Colour Code

SPARKS1, Should you ever do residential, check with the AHJ for black tape allowance. Some inspectors allow black tape for repairs only...Marker Painting preferred.

If I wake up the morning with a western sunrise I'll know some electrical guy reverse color-phased the building.

rbj, Seattle

 

[iwire]

Re: Colour Code

Originally posted by sparks1:
If we all mark our wires using a uniform color Code it will eventually become less confusing and prevents dangerous working conditions for all of us who work in the industry.

Many of us disagree with that.

In my opinion we should not teach those in the trade that the colors indicated voltage.

If we do that we become complacent in getting out a meter or tracing the circuit.

Originally posted by sparks1:
The idea of not having the right color tape to do the job is no excuse!

It has nothing to do with having the tape or certain color insulation.

Presently (even in MA) there is no 'right' color. What you are calling the 'right' color is only your idea (and mine) of the the color to use.

I doubt we will see the NEC or the MEC tell us a color to use for ungrounded conductors.

I think two recent code changes support my thoughts.

1)2005 NEC now only requires identification by system, not by phase. Also a building with only one voltage system requires no marking.

2)2005 MEC amendments removed the MEC 200.6(D) requirement to use white under 150 to ground and gray above 150 to ground for the grounded conductor.

FORGET THE COLORS, they mean NOTHING get out a meter or trace the circuit!

In my opinion relying on the color of a conductor to determine it's voltage system can only lead to mistakes.

Bob (Who uses BR, O, Y, G for 480 and BK, R, BL, W for 208. but never counts on this from others )

 

[sparks1]

Re: Colour Code

[.[/qb][/QUOTE]Many of us disagree with that.

"In my opinion we should not teach those in the trade that the colors indicated voltage".

THAT'S WHY WE ARE IN THIS PREDICAMENT!
IT'S TIME WE ALL STARTED LEARNING!

"If we do that we become complacent in getting out a meter or tracing the circuit".

Rule # 1 Never become complacent you'll get seriously hurt!

Rule # 2 Always check the voltage with a meter 1ST!

We use a standard for everything else in the trade, this includes phone wires, computer cables etc...


1)2005 NEC now only requires identification by system, not by phase.

BY WHAT COLOR STANDARD!

[ April 08, 2005, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: sparks1 ]

 

[69boss302]

Re: Colour Code

No Standard. That's the thing. We need to teach the people coming in to check everything, not teach them that red means one thing, blue another, black something different. You have to use your head all the time. Once you start even relying on what someone else marked you are getting complacent and there is no room whatsoever for that when working with electricity.

Also how often do you find wires without labels, or tape, or identifiers, because they have fallen off. Maybe not much in residential, but all the time in industrial. Or everything has gotten so old and dirty, you can't even tell what the colors were. The only thing to trust for voltage level is a meter, and when you get right down to it, should be your own meter that YOU used when YOU checked it. Before YOU stuck YOUR hands in that panel.

Trace things out, know what to expect when your working on something. My end is not so much installation, but troubleshooting and repair. All I know is a lot of times I see no markings and when I do, I don't trust them. Why?

I have seen where some one actually did change markings on a wire at the controller after he reversed two phases in the controller. OK now the two wires he changed the markings in the controller don't match the same wire they come from in the distribution panel at the breaker. Now you can't tell which wire is which so when you need to do any troubleshooting you get all messed up when your trying to trace wires. And this is very simplified, I have seen it much worse.

 

[sparks1]

Re: Colour Code

Originally posted by gndrod:

If I wake up the morning with a western sunrise I'll know some electrical guy reverse color-phased the building.

rbj, Seattle [/QB]

Not a bad idea...
THE CHANGE WILL DO US ALL GOOD!

SPARKS1

 

[peter d]

Re: Colour Code

I am totally against an NEC mandated color code, now and forever.

I think the 2005 NEC rule that presently exists is as far as it should ever go.

 

[iwire]

Re: Colour Code

Originally posted by sparks1:

1)2005 NEC now only requires identification by system, not by phase.

BY WHAT COLOR STANDARD!

By the color standard chosen by the installer or engineer.

You and I can use BOY for 480 and John Doe can use purple, pink, and orange for 480 as long as they post it.

We are required to post the color standard at the panel.

The company I work for had some nice durable stickers made to place on every panel describing the identification standard we use.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Colour Code

Peter,

I think the 2005 NEC rule that presently exists is as far as it should ever go.

I think that the rule should be changed to require identification as to both system (voltage) and phase, but the choice of the identification should remain the choice of the desinger or installer.
Don

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Colour Code

With all of this discussion about the color code of 480 and 208 with the boy that wanted to be red and black I am so confused.

I need help as to what I should do if I had a 240 delta transformer with a 208 high leg.
Brown. Orange, Yellow means 480 and Black, Red, Blue means 208

What will I do with 110.15? Hey I got it I will mark it Orange and forget all this other stuff.

 

[peter d]

Re: Colour Code

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
I think that the rule should be changed to require identification as to both system (voltage) and phase, but the choice of the identification should remain the choice of the desinger or installer.
Don

I agree to an extent, but I think the de facto field practice of using 3 distinct colors will continue despite the Code change.