Combination CAFCI & GFCI on lighting circuits

[seaton]

I am wiring my new residential construction. With the expanded requirements for CAF, I have been looking at the HOM dual function breakers. These breakers provide both GFCI and CAF protection at the breaker. Cost wise the combinations are the same as if I use just a CAF breaker. My thought was that I would just use the Dual Function breakers everywhere, thus giving me CAF and GFCI on every circuit.

Here lies the question (I would like to be 2017 compliant).
I typically give every room a circuit, lighting and outlets on one branch.
I typically do the same thing on bathrooms, outlets & lights one branch.
The breakers have a test button, so I would assume that meets requirements for testing the circuits (though it is interesting does it test both CAF and Ground fault ?)

Any problems with this approach ? I have heard people saying not to have GFCI on overhead lights, but I have never seen that be a problem. I have also heard of inspectors not liking bathroom lighting tripping with a ground fault. Personally I think that is preference. If your doing GFCI with an outlet, you can put the light prior to the outlet. The only outlet I don't typically have GFCI coverage on is the fridge outlet in the kitchen.

 

[jap]

So you mix your lighting and receptacles on the same circuit ?


JAP>

 

[seaton]

So you mix your lighting and receptacles on the same circuit ?


JAP>

Correct. Throw the breaker for the guest room, everything in that room is off.
Throw the breaker for the guest bath, same thing.

 

[seaton]

So you mix your lighting and receptacles on the same circuit ?


JAP>

Even if I did separate the lighting circuits from the receptacles, I would put the dual function breakers on those circuits unless I should not, i.e GFCI on a lighting circuit. Sized properly, I don't see any reason a lighting circuit should be tripping GFCI's unless its a particular fixture.

 

[jap]

There are specific requirements for lighting and receptacle outlets in residential applications.
The size of a GFI breaker has nothing to do with its purpose to trip in a ground fault situation.

JAP>

 

[al hildenbrand]

Here lies the question (I would like to be 2017 compliant).
I typically give every room a circuit, lighting and outlets on one branch.
I typically do the same thing on bathrooms, outlets & lights one branch.
The breakers have a test button, so I would assume that meets requirements for testing the circuits (though it is interesting does it test both CAF and Ground fault ?)

The breaker test button is, in fact, the only UL approved means of "testing" the breaker, whether simple GFCI, simple combination type AFCI, or dual function AFCI / GFCI.

Any problems with this approach ?

When installing GFCI for personnel, the so-called "Class A" with a trip threshold of 4-6 milliamps, I personally prefer to place the GFCI sensor as close to the outlet as possible, unless there is a requirement to also protect the Branch Circuit itself. Placing the GFCI sensor as close to the outlet as possible reduces the "nuisance trip" as much as possible.

Now, understand, the HOM combination type AFCI breaker (not the dual function AFCI / GFCI) do have a ground fault sensing component, but it is not for personnel and it will only trip when the leakage milliamps exceed a level roughly ten time greater than a Class A GFCI.

 

[seaton]

There are specific requirements for lighting and receptacle outlets in residential applications.
The size of a GFI breaker has nothing to do with its purpose to trip in a ground fault situation.

JAP>

I understand load calculations, and am not asking for help sizing my circuits. I also understand things such as the 210.11(C)(3) Exception. I am basically asking with dual function breakers GFCI functionality is included in the breaker. I plan on using said breakers as my standard breakers for cost etc. Obviously I could buy breakers that just cover CAF, and then install a GFCI receptacle (additional cost) where I want GFCI. where this breaker gives me the best of both worlds, why not use them everywhere including lighting circuits. Would that be a problem ?

 

[jap]

I'm not trying to help size your circuits.
Just politely indicating that there are places that you cannot mix lighting and receptacle loads.

JAP>

 

[user 100]

Just politely indicating that there are places that you cannot mix lighting and receptacle loads.

JAP>

:happyyes:


SABC's, laundry, bathroom, garage (new in 2017 FWIU) are a few.

 

[jap]

:happyyes:


SABC's, laundry, bathroom, garage (new in 2017 FWIU) are a few.

 

[ActionDave]

I'm not trying to help size your circuits.
Just politely indicating that there are places that you cannot mix lighting and receptacle loads.

JAP>

I'm sure he's aware of that.

 

[Sierrasparky]

So you mix your lighting and receptacles on the same circuit ?


JAP>

Why not. You can do that even in a bathroom
"Exception: Where the 20-ampere circuit supplies a single
bathroom, outlets for other equipment within the same
bathroom shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance
with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2)."

Just not on the Laundry and Kitchen SABC.

Even if I did separate the lighting circuits from the receptacles, I would put the dual function breakers on those circuits unless I should not, i.e GFCI on a lighting circuit. Sized properly, I don't see any reason a lighting circuit should be tripping GFCI's unless its a particular fixture.

You can but you may be in for tripping breakers.

I'm not trying to help size your circuits.
Just politely indicating that there are places that you cannot mix lighting and receptacle loads.

JAP>

See above

:happyyes:


SABC's, laundry, bathroom, garage (new in 2017 FWIU) are a few.

See above as there are exceptions

I would personally not use Dual function breakers on all the circuits. it might just become a nightmare for you. Or it might find all the Nails from poor framing practices ie - too long a nail. Nails beaten in through a nail protective plate, Nails that missed a stud ...... :happysad:

 

[ActionDave]

I understand load calculations, and am not asking for help sizing my circuits. I also understand things such as the 210.11(C)(3) Exception. I am basically asking with dual function breakers GFCI functionality is included in the breaker. I plan on using said breakers as my standard breakers for cost etc. Obviously I could buy breakers that just cover CAF, and then install a GFCI receptacle (additional cost) where I want GFCI. where this breaker gives me the best of both worlds, why not use them everywhere including lighting circuits. Would that be a problem ?

There's nothing in the NEC that stops you from using the dual function breakers on every circuit. I think you may end up with an occasional nusiance trip because GFCIs are so sensitive, but what does that matter when you are guaranteed to have nusiance trips with the AFCI portion of the breaker anyway.

 

[jap]

I would personally not use Dual function breakers on all the circuits. it might just become a nightmare for you. Or it might find all the Nails from poor framing practices ie - too long a nail. Nails beaten in through a nail protective plate, Nails that missed a stud ...... :happysad:

Heaven forbid a breaker find a problems like that.


JAP>

 

[seaton]

Why not. You can do that even in a bathroom
"Exception: Where the 20-ampere circuit supplies a singlebathroom, outlets for other equipment within the samebathroom shall be permitted to be supplied in accordancewith 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2)."

Just not on the Laundry and Kitchen SABC.

Right, to my understanding, Garage Outlets, SABC, and laundry require a dedicated 20A. There is an exception where I can supply an outside outlet that is near by, but that's it as I understand it.

A bathroom as you described above.

You can but you may be in for tripping breakers.

I would personally not use Dual function breakers on all the circuits. it might just become a nightmare for you. Or it might find all the Nails from poor framing practices ie - too long a nail. Nails beaten in through a nail protective plate, Nails that missed a stud ...... :happysad:

Thank you, one of the first people to address the actual question. Nails should not be a problem, in this case, in theory. :angel: False Trips, that I would think would be the only possible downside.


I guess I am odd, I like having each room, Bathroom, on its own circuit. It is very clear what is on what breaker, safe and easy to troubleshoot. One of the main reasons I like this style is hybrid solar installs. When the grid goes down, and a person wants to minimize load on the batteries, it is easy to control and narrow down to essential circuits / rooms. I am sure the same can be said with narrowing down to lighting circuits or whatever.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Heaven forbid a breaker find a problems like that.


JAP>

Yup ,

How many times have you run across another persons work where the AFCI was tripping or removed. Find the problem with a section of wire and the customer or GC is unwilling to make such repairs? Me way to many. They would rather blame those pesky AFCI's. I had several framers go right through a nail plate, see a spark , reset the breaker and call it good. :lol:

 

[al hildenbrand]

Placing the GFCI sensor as close to the outlet as possible reduces the "nuisance trip" as much as possible.

You can but you may be in for tripping breakers.

I think you may end up with an occasional nusiance trip because GFCIs are so sensitive, . . .

Thank you, one of the first people to address the actual question. . . False Trips, that I would think would be the only possible downside.

Just sayin', we said it more than once.

 

[jap]

Yup ,

How many times have you run across another persons work where the AFCI was tripping or removed. Find the problem with a section of wire and the customer or GC is unwilling to make such repairs? Me way to many. They would rather blame those pesky AFCI's. I had several framers go right through a nail plate, see a spark , reset the breaker and call it good. :lol:

So what do you do when you run into a situation like this?

JAP>

 

[user 100]

See above as there are exceptions

I was aware that you can do it in a single bathroom, but still, even in that instance I wouldn't put the light ahead of the gfci.

There would be no real practical benefit imo to putting modern lighting on gfci, or gfci'ing modern wiring outside of an area in which someone is in close proximity to grounded objects, moisture, metal surfaces etc.

The op feels differently, but whatever floats your boat.

 

[al hildenbrand]

The op feels differently, but whatever floats your boat.

There is a "tidiness" to having all the "Test" and "Reset" buttons scattered throughout the modern home all combined into the service center branch circuit overcurrent protective devices. One doesn't have to hunt to find the source of the trip, one simply only goes to the service center. Very pre-Seventies.

While that simplifies trouble shooting for the non-technical homeowner, it does, in my opinion, reduce the reliable operation of the energized wiring without interruptions.