Commercial office space with Romex (NM)???

[bjp_ne_elec]

I looked at a job last night, and it was a two story commercial office space - but upon opening the panel I was surprised to see Romex run. Am I missing something?

I thought Romex was only allowed in residential construction.

Has the NEC changed, when it comes to Romex, in the last 10 years? I know this building is right around 10 years old.

Dependant on the answer to the above question, can a wiring type be "grandfathered"? How would you go about making new installations in say MC, as you'd have to start ripping out the non-metallic JBs, if you had to switch.

Thanks,

Brett

 

[iwire]

Brett the NEC never that I know of prohibited NM from non-dwelling units.

It is limited by construction type.

However the NEC now prohibits NM from being exposed above a non-dwelling suspended ceiling.

The easiest way to add to this will be MC or even AC.

 

[bjp_ne_elec]

Bob - are you saying it needs to be MC? Want to fully understand.

As I was up in the attic, the construction is 2" x 4" wood construction, with 2" x 8" wood trusses.

To your point, did the NEC at any point change as far as building type acceptable for Romex? There is no suspended ceiling in the building - although the new owners were considering it in the computer room.

Thanks,

Brett

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

While i dislike seeing romex in anything it likely was permitted in this building at time built.Most likely if your wires are inside walls you could add to it.The ceiling is the problem.Is it a hard ceiling ? You could just start at panel with mc and not touch this old wiring.Tell us what you will be adding.

See you added post while i typed.Being its hard i see no reason not to use romex.Has its use possably changed any ?Might check with local ahj first.

 

[bjp_ne_elec]

What would be added would making some modifications to some of the fixture wiring - but it would be all up in the attic. Right now the Romex is bounced around to all the 1 x 4 (2 tube) surface mounted flourescent lights. The wall and ceiling finish is 5/8" sheet rock.

The only ceiling that is suspended, would be the computer room. The room is not built, but the owners did point out that they wanted a drop ceiling in it - not exactly sure why.

JimW - I'm not sure what you meant by "Has its use possibly changed any" - if you're talking about the building space - it's always been commercial office space. It will continue to be used as office space by the new owners. I also failed to mention that it's a condo type commercial space. Four units are tied together, and some are tied together, others are all seperate - so some four units may have four tenants/owners - others may be tied together. One other unit I looked at has two of the units tied together by a single tenant.

Thanks

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

You might suggest they stay with hard to keep this from being a problem.Not sure it even be allowed with the romex thats now in it.About 6 years ago a company i was with did a remodel in romex and it had droped ceilings.Was legal at time but not now.Will stop on way to work and tear it down.Seriously i would call ahj first.If usage changed any they might not allow it.

 

[bjp_ne_elec]

JimW - not following you. Are you indicating they wouldn't allow any Romex to be run in the entire building - or they wouldn't allow Romex in the dropped ceiling?

Just to be clear on my end, there is no dropped ceiling presently in the building space. They were considering a dropped ceiling in the computer room. All other spaces are sheetrocked (hard).

Thanks

Brett

 

[infinity]

If the building is 10 years old than NM cable was likely permitted when the building was originally constructed. NM cable was allowed in structures not exceeding 3 stories above grade up to the 1999 NEC. In the 2002 NEC the prohibition changed to structures of certain construction types and the above hung ceilings prohibition was added as well.

So now under the 2005 NEC you would be permitted to use NM cable if it weren't above a hung ceiling and the building is of a construction type listed in 334.10.

 

[bjp_ne_elec]

Infinity - it's 2" x 4" wood framing, wood trusses that are 2" x 8", and 5/8" sheetrock. I'm a little fuzzy on the descriptions of Type III, Type IV and Type V - so what type am I describing? Do you need to know any more info to determine?

Thanks

Brett

 

[infinity]

Infinity - it's 2" x 4" wood framing, wood trusses that are 2" x 8", and 5/8" sheetrock. I'm a little fuzzy on the descriptions of Type III, Type IV and Type V - so what type am I describing? Do you need to know any more info to determine?

Thanks

Brett

Usually that is determined by an architect, engineer or the AHJ. I'm no building type guru so unless it's obvious I leave that up to someone else to determine. When all else fails check with the local building department since they will be the ones responsible for the code enforcement.

 

[iwire]

If you have a set of real plans the construction type will likely be listed on the cover sheet with all the other official info such as sq footage, number of occupants, etc.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

While it may be fine for lets say 20 workers as office space ,this same building used to hold 100 plus people would change things.At certain points we now deal with safety of getting people out in a fire.I would check with ahj,fire department and the arch..The outcome here greatly reflects price.What i would be concerned about is if they will be permitted to have a drop ceiling anywhere now that it would not conform.A computer room is not usually that big that a hard ceiling be to costly.Yes it will limit them on running new drops ,but that is easily fixed with some conduit to attic.

 

[infinity]

Jim,

Are you saying that a building with more than 100 people is considered a place of assembly?

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

First off, the OP should find out or tell us which code cycle his jurisdiction is following. Without that info, most of what is being stated may just confuse him more.

As much as NM cable seems to really bother some, it has its good qualities. There are several 12 story and taller buildings around the jurisdiction I work in that have been wired in NM cable and all of the buildings are still standing...I guess it is a miracle .

BJP
Let us know what code cycle and then you can get some pertinent info for your particular installation.

 

[LarryFine]

As much as NM cable seems to really bother some, it has its good qualities. There are several 12 story and taller buildings around the jurisdiction I work in that have been wired in NM cable and all of the buildings are still standing...I guess it is a miracle .

I wonder how the NM knows how high above the ground it is?

Just like I wonder how deer know where the deer crossings are.

Or how tornados know where the mobile-home parks are.

 

[bjp_ne_elec]

Code Cycle - NEC 2005

 

[iwire]

While it may be fine for lets say 20 workers as office space ,this same building used to hold 100 plus people would change things.At certain points we now deal with safety of getting people out in a fire.

Jim is this just a personal thing or do you have a code section in mind?

The number of people in the office building has no bearing on using NM or not.

 

[marissa2]

What about 518.1 and 518.4
Lou

 

[iwire]

What about 518.1 and 518.4
Lou

A typical office building no matter how large will not be a place of assembly.

If in that office building they had a auditorium that held over 100 persons than that room would be a place of assembly but not the entire building.

 

[roger]

Lou, office spaces are not (per the definition) places of assembly.

Of course there may be some deliberation involved.

Roger