Commercial oven disconnect

[iwire]

This range does not have a bottom drawer. It works real well for cooking crow either baked, broiled, fried, boiled or with dumplings. lol

It looks like it has a drawer to me.:-?

 

[jwelectric]

It looks like it has a drawer to me.:-?

That is not a real good picture but that is the bottom of the range. This is a slide-in type. Try this link
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=247359-39047-HEI7132U&lpage=none

It is common practice of some remodel contractors (both licensed and unlicensed) to install a plug on the supplied whip or replace the whip with a cord and use the existing receptacle when installing a slide-in type in place of a free standing range.
Some will do the reverse when installing a free standing range where a slide-in type of range is being removed. Some just cut the end off a range cord and use it for a whip to the junction box.

Now the discussion thickens when the remodel contractor is installing a slide-in with a wall mounted oven and the existing three wire receptacle is supplied with a 8/2 with ground copper NM cable. This type of circuit was common place some years back.

 

[goldstar]

We're gonna have to convince Mike Holt to have a section entitled "Stand-up comedy" where we can post because you guys are hilarious !!! I especially like Big Vic's recipe. Bob, there's a restaurant up in Cambridge called "Salts". They prepare all fresh game or whatever was killed on the Interstate that day. Call ahead and make reservations. (It happens to be a great place)

The cord and plug is acceptable only if the drawer is removable.

Mike, I guess it depends on what is considered "accessable". If a "slide-in" type unit is used does the fact that it can be slid in or out qualify it as being accessable ? In the case of say a double wall oven that has to be securely fastened into a cabinet I can see where that would be considered inaccessable.

I haven't seen the actual appliance yet but from what I remember of the Viking and Garland units that I've come in contact with they have legs and stand above the floor by some 4" - 6". I would imagine that if you got down on all fours you could look under the unit and see the cord and plug (if you had one installed). Does that qualify as being accessable ?

 

[big vic]

Before the crow is digested...........I have never seen a free standing electric household range without a removable drawer

 

[LarryFine]

Mike, I guess it depends on what is considered "accessable". If a "slide-in" type unit is used does the fact that it can be slid in or out qualify it as being accessable ? In the case of say a double wall oven that has to be securely fastened into a cabinet I can see where that would be considered inaccessable.

I'd call that accessible, but not readily accessible. Similarly, I'd say that a junction box may reside behind an upper kitchen cabinet. I have removed a single upper cabinet several times for in-wall access. A cabinet is not part of the structure.

 

[mdshunk]

In my opinion, the language in 422.33(B) is redundant, and does nothing to enhance or modify 422.33(A), which it references. 422.33(A) requires that a range cord and plug type disconnect be accessible.

Accessible (as applied to equipment). ​

Admitting close approach; not guarded by locked doors,​

elevation, or other effective means.

It is not hard to slide out a range. Matter of fact, if you need to disconnect it for some reason, you're probably servicing it or changing it, you're gonna have to slide it out anyhow. I do not call the fact that a range lacks a drawer or is of the slide in or drop in (semi built in) variety, makes the cord and plug inaccessible. There is a very easy means to admit close approach of the disconnect. Even built in wall ovens need slid out for maintenance tasks that would require disconnecting them from the source of power. Generally, removal of 4 to 6 phillips screws creates the ability to remove the whole assembly to disconnect it. There is no general requirement in the 'accessible, equipment' definition that access not require the use of simple hand tools.​

 

[LarryFine]

Now the discussion thickens when the remodel contractor is installing a slide-in with a wall mounted oven and the existing three wire receptacle is supplied with a 8/2 with ground copper NM cable. This type of circuit was common place some years back.

I always replace a receptacle with a junction box, or vice versa, when swapping a plug-in for a hardwire.

I don't remember a 2-conductor NM ever being acceptable for appliances where the neutral was allowed to double as the EGC. The neutral had to be insulated or part of an SE cable with outer jacket.

I have seen paralleled 10-3's for cooking appliances.

 

[iwire]

A cabinet is not part of the structure.

I think I would have a hard time getting an inspector to buy that but I see your point.

It is accessible, all you have to do is pull down that upper cabinet

I can't see an inspector agreeing with that.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Accessible (as applied to wiring methods)
Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building.


I would consider the wiring behind a cabinet secured to the wall as permanent and part of the finish.

 

[jwelectric]

I don't remember a 2-conductor NM ever being acceptable for appliances where the neutral was allowed to double as the EGC. The neutral had to be insulated or part of an SE cable with outer jacket.

Prior to the 1971 code cycle there was no requirement for the un-insulated conductor to be part of SE cable.
I have found 8/2 and 6/2 with ground and 10/2 with ground for ranges and dryers in houses built as late as the mid ?80s in my area of the world.

 

[LarryFine]

Accessible (as applied to wiring methods)
Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building.


I would consider the wiring behind a cabinet secured to the wall as permanent and part of the finish.

I do not, even after reading the definition. Closed-in does not mean concealed; concealed can certainly still be accessible. A cabinet is neither structure nor finish.

The typical kitchen cabinet is secured by 6 to 8 screws; two sideways into the face of each adjoining cabinet for alignmment, and 2 to 4 into wall framing for support.

 

[iwire]

IMO and I am sure most of the inspectors in my area would call kitchen cabinets that are screwed to the structure 'Finish'

As I said I can see your point but I can not agree.

That would be a lousy spot to put a J-box, how would the next EC find it?

How about pulling the cabinet down, install a box (say a 4" square with a deep raised ring) in the wall and have it extend into the cabinet so a blank cover would be found at the rear of the cabinet?

 

[LarryFine]

IMO and I am sure most of the inspectors in my area would call kitchen cabinets that are screwed to the structure 'Finish'

As I said I can see your point but I can not agree.

That would be a lousy spot to put a J-box, how would the next EC find it?

How about pulling the cabinet down, install a box (say a 4" square with a deep raised ring) in the wall and have it extend into the cabinet so a blank cover would be found at the rear of the cabinet?

That works for me!

Another electrician might also not know about a J-box in a cabinet, behind a stack of dishes. One could always place a note about a concealed J-box in the panel.

My point was, though, not that I would intentionally place a J-box behind a cabinet, but that the existence of a J-box would not stop me from placing a cabinet over it.

 

[acrwc10]

I do not, even after reading the definition. Closed-in does not mean concealed; concealed can certainly still be accessible. A cabinet is neither structure nor finish.

The typical kitchen cabinet is secured by 6 to 8 screws; two sideways into the face of each adjoining cabinet for alignmment, and 2 to 4 into wall framing for support.

That is not going to work in most jurisdictions. I have worked in houses where they have paid big money 20k or more to have the cabinets finished in place they are part of the structure. To remove one would damage the finish.To say it is not part of the structure is silly, and to put the jbox behind a cabinet and call it accessable? How many times have you had an inspector see that and say it is acceptible? My guess would be none. It seems like alot of work for trim out, to take down a cabinet that was just put up to connect an oven then put the same cabinet back up.It seems like alot of work when you could just put a ring on the box and have easy access to it.

 

[iwire]

not that I would intentionally place a J-box behind a cabinet, but that the existence of a J-box would not stop me from placing a cabinet over it.

I would stop someone from doing that unless a suitable hole was cut into the cabinet back.

Another electrician might also not know about a J-box in a cabinet, behind a stack of dishes

True, but they do have a much better chance of finding it than finding one behind a mounted cabinet.

 

[goldstar]

I'd call that accessible, but not readily accessible. Similarly, I'd say that a junction box may reside behind an upper kitchen cabinet. I have removed a single upper cabinet several times for in-wall access. A cabinet is not part of the structure.

Larry, IMHO once something is screwed in I would consider that permantly installed. I'm an electrician - not a carpenter. I shouldn't have to take apart someone's kitchen cabinet to gain access to a JB. (Besides which, I can't begin to describe what it would look like after I tried to put it back !!!) In addition, if you are working in a McMansion where the kitchens run between $50K and $150K I don't think you would want to remove anything that was already screwed in.

Getting back to 422.31(B) (if you choose to go this route) what device would be used to lock the breaker in the open position. Is it something that can be used for any type breaker or do you have to carry one in the truck for every breaker manufacturer ? I've seen installations where a small sub-panel was installed just for the range/oven that had stand-off flanges where a pad lock could be installed. However, most (new) installations that I see today utilize a breaker within the main panel.

BTW, in my original post I mentioned that my friend had always wired these units direct to the terminals. Does this mean that he would have to provide (or leave) a means to lock out the breaker or is that the responsibility of whom ever comes in to service the unit ?

 

[acrwc10]

Larry, IMHO once something is screwed in I would consider that permantly installed. I'm an electrician - not a carpenter. I shouldn't have to take apart someone's kitchen cabinet to gain access to a JB. (Besides which, I can't begin to describe what it would look like after I tried to put it back !!!)

Or how about the fact you don't even know that there is a J-box behind the cabinet with out taking it down, what if you chose to take down the wrong one. I don't want to beat you up to much on this , but I would sure be cussing you if I had to play a game of "find the J-box."

 

[goldstar]

I'm in agreement with you.