Common Area Circuits

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bphgravity

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I have a group of multi-tenant office buildings with a common entry area, breezeways, corridors, ect. Each building has 6 - 1,000 ft? units.

The general contractor wishes to delete the house panel and supply all common area lighting from one tenant space. This tenant space will be the owner of the structure. This means all egress lighting and night lighting will be powered and controlled from the unit panelboard.

I feel there is a possible life safety concern with this action. In the event the owner neglects to pay their electric bill, goes on vacation, or simply shuts off the breaker to the common area lighting, the other 5 tenant spaces loses all their exterior common area lighting.

I discussed the issue with the Fire Marshal and he felt the parking lot lighting provided enough security and egress lighting from the building. This lighting is supplied from a remote panelboard.

Any thoughts on this issue? I would estimate 90% of non-dwelling structures utilize a house panel for common area lighting. 210.25 only applies to dwelling occupancies...
 
My thought is that if it meets all the applicable codes then whats the beef? At that point it is a design decision, not a code issue.
 
bphgravity said:
Any thoughts on this issue?
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My feelings mirror yours: the house power should be independent. However, if the AHJ in position to object has no problem with the deletion, go for it.

I would still recommend using a separate panel for these house loads should the decision be reversed in the future, supplied from the owner's panel for now.

I can't help but wonder (a) whether this is existing or in planning, and (b) why the GC wants to delete the house panel. More info might help.
 
Upon inspection of the first building service equipment, the inspector noted the missing house panel. The GC explained that they no longer wished to install a house panel ($$$$$) and were planning on supplying the circuits from one of the unit panels. They planned on submitting a plans revision, but have yet to. In the meanwhile, the GC got back with our department and indicated the unit in which the common area circuits will be supplied from will be the buildings owner whom will occupy the unit and lease the other tenant spaces.

A few hours later, he called back and stated he spoke with the city Fire Marshal whom indicated the parking lot lighting was sufficient for egress lighting and individual control of the building common exterior lighting was not an issue.

I respect the Fire Marshal and work with his department closely, however, I have my own AHJ to answer to.

Obviously, my department has no control or jurisdiction over contractual agreements or occupancy arrangements. I am looking at this strictly from a life safety issue.
 
Common Area Circuits.

Common Area Circuits.

bphgravity said:
I have a group of multi-tenant office buildings with a common entry area, breezeways, corridors, ect. Each building has 6 - 1,000 ft? units.

The general contractor wishes to delete the house panel and supply all common area lighting from one tenant space. This tenant space will be the owner of the structure. This means all egress lighting and night lighting will be powered and controlled from the unit panelboard.

I feel there is a possible life safety concern with this action. In the event the owner neglects to pay their electric bill, goes on vacation, or simply shuts off the breaker to the common area lighting, the other 5 tenant spaces loses all their exterior common area lighting.

I discussed the issue with the Fire Marshal and he felt the parking lot lighting provided enough security and egress lighting from the building. This lighting is supplied from a remote panelboard.

Any thoughts on this issue? I would estimate 90% of non-dwelling structures utilize a house panel for common area lighting. 210.25 only applies to dwelling occupancies...
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210.25 Dwelling unit branch circuits are only permitted to supply loads within or associated with the dwelling unit.

IMO associated with makes it ok.
 
If the fire marshall says it`s ok and the AHJ says it`s ok and the owner /tenent of the unit says it`s ok.Go for it.

Now in years to come this might become an issue as far as the common area lighting being on a units meter,but that isn`t changing the NOW issue.The one department that might have a problem with this is the actual building dept.Will they issue a C.O. like this ????? That would be my next question.They might feel differently from the fire marshalls point of view and say that the parking lot lights aren`t sufficient.That they common area lighting needs to be independant from the tenants meters.
 
To me, 210.25 says this is not allowed.

"branch circuits for the purpose of lighting...multifamily dewlling shall not be supplied from equipment that supplies an individual dwelling unit".

They may say the owner is going to live in one appartment, but what happens if he decides to move out. Now another regular tennant has control of the lights.

Or what if he sells the building?

It's not strictly an emergency egress issue either. These lights are for the day to day use of the common areas. So just because the fire marshall is fine with it, doesn't mean you have to accept it.

Why can't they run these from the panel feeding the parking lot lights?
 
steve66 said:
To me, 210.25 says this is not allowed.
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I agree with this statment, Steve. There is nothing in 210.25 that makes an exception for the owner living in one of the units. It is as clear as anyone could hope to get from any article in the NEC. It says, quite clearly, that you can't do what is being suggested here. Tell the owner to toss some more money at this building, and move on.
 
Wait a minute. I thought this was an office building. 210.25 refers to dwelling units. However, I still think it is a bad idea. I just don't know where it is not allowed.
 
Bryan have you thought to ask the POCO how they feel about this?

For a building like you describe in my area I am all but certain the POCO would require a house meter no less than 200 amp.
 
210.70 Lighting Outlets Required.
Lighting outlets shall be installed where specified in 210.70(A), (B), and (C).
(A) Dwelling Units. In dwelling units, lighting outlets shall be installed in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), (2), and (3).
(1) Habitable Rooms. At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.
Exception No. 1: In other than kitchens and bathrooms, one or more receptacles controlled by a wall switch shall be permitted in lieu of lighting outlets.
Exception No. 2: Lighting outlets shall be permitted to be controlled by occupancy sensors that are (1) in addition to wall switches or (2) located at a customary wall switch location and equipped with a manual override that will allow the sensor to function as a wall switch.
(2) Additional Locations. Additional lighting outlets shall be installed in accordance with (a), (b), and (c).
(a) At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in hallways, stairways, attached garages, and detached garages with electric power.
(b) For dwelling units, attached garages, and detached garages with electric power, at least one wall switch?controlled lighting outlet shall be installed to provide illumination on the exterior side of outdoor entrances or exits with grade level access. A vehicle door in a garage shall not be considered as an outdoor entrance or exit.
(c) Where one or more lighting outlet(s) are installed for interior stairways, there shall be a wall switch at each floor level, and landing level that includes an entry way, to control the lighting outlet(s) where the stairway between floor levels has six risers or more.
Exception to (a), (b), and (c): In hallways, stairways, and at outdoor entrances, remote, central, or automatic control of lighting shall be permitted.
(3) Storage or Equipment Spaces. For attics, underfloor spaces, utility rooms, and basements, at least one lighting outlet containing a switch or controlled by a wall switch shall be installed where these spaces are used for storage or contain equipment requiring servicing. At least one point of control shall be at the usual point of entry to these spaces. The lighting outlet shall be provided at or near the equipment requiring servicing.
(B) Guest Rooms. At least one wall switch?controlled lighting outlet or wall switch?controlled receptacle shall be installed in guest rooms in hotels, motels, or similar occupancies.
(C) Other Than Dwelling Units. For attics and underfloor spaces containing equipment requiring servicing, such as heating, air-conditioning, and refrigeration equipment, at least one lighting outlet containing a switch or controlled by a wall switch shall be installed in such spaces. At least one point of control shall be at the usual point of entry to these spaces. The lighting outlet shall be provided at or near the equipment requiring servicing.


Just where do you see this lighting even being required for this building.Had an inspector try to pull this one on me last week on a rear door on office building.I nicely asked him what code required it.His answer was 210.70 go read it.I said i already did and went and got by code book.He wasnt happy with egg on his face and 2 supers watching this.He passed it.
 
The life safety code requires egress lighting for people to go from the exit of the building to a public walkway.

How is this building being metered?

I don't understand how the utility or inspector, elec or fire, can tell a building owner how to power the common area lighting. In plenty of office buildings I have designed, the common area and tenant power/lighting branch circuits come from the same panelboard and tenants are either billed on a sq.ft basis or check metered for elec usage.
 
bwyllie said:
The life safety code requires egress lighting for people to go from the exit of the building to a public walkway.

How is this building being metered?

I don't understand how the utility or inspector, elec or fire, can tell a building owner how to power the common area lighting. In plenty of office buildings I have designed, the common area and tenant power/lighting branch circuits come from the same panelboard and tenants are either billed on a sq.ft basis or check metered for elec usage.
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Would that not be met by parking lot lights ?Would that include rear doors ? Seems that this would be up to the firemarshal.
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
In our area, the fire marshal is responsible for exits and emergency lighting. The egress lighting is the purvue of the building department. Egress lighting is not defined by parking lot lighting.
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In mine, it is just the lights that gets you to the 1st public way.

Jim
New Hampshire
 
I agree its the fire marshalls call if the lighting is there but does he have the authority to tell you how or where to get the power for these fixtures from?
 
iwire said:
Bryan have you thought to ask the POCO how they feel about this?

For a building like you describe in my area I am all but certain the POCO would require a house meter no less than 200 amp.
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No way is that under POCO's jurisdiction... what do they care? They only supply power... am I correct?
 
stickboy1375 said:
No way is that under POCO's jurisdiction...
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No way?

Before you go and say that you might do some research.;)

Why would they care?

Because they are put between a rock and a hard place if the tenant that provides the common area lighting does not pay the bill. If they pull the meter for that tenant they kill the common area lighting as well.

Beyond lighting typically in our area the common area needs power for heating systems, Fire Alarm systems and sometimes fire sprinkler equipment. Without power the heat stops and sprinkler systems that where designed for warm areas freeze up.


They only supply power... am I correct?
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Correct....but they do not have to supply anything if the customer does not agree to their rules as long as the utilities commission approves the rules.
 
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I am leaving this one in the hands of the Fire Marshal. I have requested a plan revision from the design professional showing the house panel deleted and the common area lighting on the unit panelboard. Any future complaints or issues with the lighting would fall under the jurisdiction of the Fire Marshal, usually through complaints to the Police Department.
 
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