communications for high end home

[cceinak]

Hello

I am working on a high-end custom home. For the Phone/TV outlets I have pulled two Cat 5E cables and one RG-6 coax to every opening.
The customer really wants full blanket coverage of his home, so it turn we have roughed in many, many phone/TV outlets in every room. Most all bedrooms have three rough-ins each.

Everything is brought back as a separate home run. Consequently, its really adding up in the mechanical room where I am going to put the telephone punch downs and splitters.

My plan was to punch one Cat5 E cable from each rough in on to a patch panel. Out in the field I would punch down a RG-45 module for a LAN. The other Cat5 was going to get broken out for separate phone lines for voice.

What is the best option for the other CAT 5E that is going to be used for voice? The owner works out of his home a lot. Would the best bet be a keyed system? I have heard that Panasonic makes a pretty good low-end system. He will have a total of three landlines coming into the house. Local home phone line, business line, fax line. He has also expressed interest in a intercom for the house, so would it just seem logical to install a low-end keyed system. He then could have all three lines in the office, and also the availability of intercom and line transfer to anywhere in the home. One thing I was wondering is the use of other phones. Does anybody make keyed phone system that the phones don?t look so office like? I would like to put one of these in, but for instance, in the kid?s rooms, would they be strapped down to some big bulky looking phone that has a speaker into it. And, also can you plug any one line phone into a jack around the house and get a normal line if needed?

Another question. With all the RG-6 cables coming back to the mechanical room, what the best idea for a clean looking wire management system. Do the make some sort of panel that you can terminate all your coax onto and then use a patch cord to plug and use as needed? I have about 28 coax cables coming back to the mechanical room, and I really want it to look right!

Now days its not really about just running a couple of phone lines back to the demark or running a few cables back to a splitter. I hope I have covered myself well, and was just wanting to get others opinion!
Thanks o

 

[racraft]

Re: communications for high end home

Make your cat 5 connections as flexible as possible. It is entirely possible that both cat 5 connections at one location will need to be computer, while both at another location will need to be phone.

You may also want your RG6 cables to be doubled, at least at some locations.. Some satelite systems need to back feed to other locations, requiring two RG6 at each location.

 

[hbiss]

Re: communications for high end home

I am working on a high-end custom home... Out in the field I would punch down a RG-45 module for a LAN... Would the best bet be a keyed system... With all the RG-6 cables coming back to the mechanical room, what the best idea for a clean looking wire management system. Do the make some sort of panel that you can terminate all your coax onto and then use a patch cord to plug...

You know, I absolutely cringe when I read questions like this. You are working on a high end custom home and you really don't have a clue how to provide your customer with what he needs in the areas you ask about. Yet you apparently led your customer to believe that you can handle it.

I can't tell you how many times I have been called to service (or just plain "make it work") systems installed by electricians and alarm guys.

I can say this because having been an electrician I now sell and install telecommunications. These are two distinct trades and you can't do one without sacrificing something from the other. You can't install KEY systems one day and change out services the next and expect to be knowledgeable and proficient in both areas or be taken seriously by your customers.

Now, I'm all for learning, that's what we are here for, but there are times when the professional and ethical thing to do is to do only what you are capable of and refer the rest to others who are qualified.

 

[cceinak]

Re: communications for high end home

what on earth are you talking about? I think your comment is a little bit over the top actually. I have never told anybody something that I have not been able to perform on. I am asking about a keyed system. I am not done wiring the house, I am not going to give anybody a poor product. Maybe you are bring some extra baggage into this or something, but me on the other hand, when i get done, the customer will get what they want. That is why I ask. I am not going to take what you say personally, but get off your high horse. I believe that through education and the proper educational tools, this website to name one, most competent electricians can install a capable keyed system or low volt system for a house. I talked to a dealer today about panasonic keyed systems and the wiring I am pulling and have pulled would work very well. He also said that most systems are installed by the home owners and not electricans.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: communications for high end home

I'm not sure that I'd even think about a hardwired network system in a new house if I was building one for myself. Wireless is so much more flexible.
Don

 

[tom baker]

Re: communications for high end home

The telephone 4 pr and data Cat 5e should be punched down on patch panels. Then the jack is assigned to what ever line or port required via a patch cord. I have a structured wiring center in my house and it has worked out well, I have a wireless and wired data network. the residential telecom standard, EIA/TIA 570 recommends 2 cat 5e, 2 cat 3, 2 rg-6 and two fibers to each outlet. The big box home stores sell a composite cable with above in it for 0.80/ft!
for my house most runs are 3, 5e and rg-6.
I don't know about the coax management.
Look into a structured wiring center, all the electrical mfgs make them, Leviton, Sq D, GE,.

Panasonic makes a very nice electronic phone sysem. We use panasonic phone sets with out top of the line Nortel phone system here at work.

The panasonic phones are all 2 wire phones, so will work on any POTS.

 

[dereckbc]

Re: communications for high end home

cceinak, my first suggestion is you do some research on how to terminate cat-5 cable. It is easy, it just takes some special tools like crimpers or punch-down tool. There are also some techniques with respect to number of twist per inch that need to be maintained if it is going to be used for 100-Base-T.

Next piece of advise is as Tom suggested, use some sort of distribution system like a patch panel, so cross-connects can be managed. There are several manufactures that supply them. Gray Bar or North Supply would be a good place to look for products.

Coax is another area that takes some special tools, parts, and care to get it right. Mainly a stripper and crimper. Again do some research and you can pick up on all the details and techniques. Look for a manufacture web sites called Trompeter and Belden. They have a lot of how-to info along with products.

Not sure what to tell you about coax management since you didn't give much detail. It depends on if you are going to use CATV, satellite, data, or all the above. You may need a distribution amplifier and integrated services. I suggest you get some professional help.

Telephone systems are wide open. Panasonic makes some good home products. They do make two line phones, key systems, and PABX. You really need to know what functions and features the customer is expecting. You mentioned one, intercom, that is a feature of a key system or PABX. Since you only have three incoming lines, a key system will probably work. But if the customer wants DSL or integrated services,I suggest you get a rep to walk you through the options. A mistake here can be very expensive

I would also suggest you get a piece of plywood and mount it on a wall. This will give you a place to mount all the distribution equipment. In the telecom business we call this a distribution frame. When you are looking for hardware look for things called binding post and "D" rings. They will make things easier to manage cable. While you are at it, install at least one dedicated branch ciruit

Good Luck

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: communications for high end home

Since we specialize in high-end homes, we install alot of these type of system.

We pull 'Smurf Rope', that's what we call it. Basically because the manufacturer of the cable that we install uses a blue outer jacket.
It has (2) Cat 5e, and (2) RG-6 quad shield.

Having the second coax comes in handy alot of times for doing all sorts of video loops.

You could install something as basic as 66 punch-down blocks and coax splitters.

Although there are others, we primarily use the Pass and Seymore system.
For the money, these systems are great. They are very flexible, have many options, are easy to install, and their customer support is top notch. There are more expensive systems, but for what you are doing, I would reccommend P&S.

For the networking, they have a 10/100Base-T router in 5 or 8 port and you can link (2) units together. You can also connect your DSL or Cable Modem directly through the system.

For the telephones, they have a wide veriety of modules. 4line x 10port punchdowns and 4x8/12/24 RJ-45 jacks.

For the TV's, again, a wide veriety of modules. We primarily use the 8x8 or 16x16 slide ins which have built-in amplifiers and built-in sattellite ports which is great, because you can send the sattellite signal to numerous outputs.

As Dereck pointed out, no matter what you go with, the use of 'binding posts' and/or 'D' rings is essential in a clean and neat looking job.

 

[hbiss]

Re: communications for high end home

...Maybe you are bring some extra baggage into this or something

I intended for you to not take my comments as an insult but as constructively as possible.

I suppose my "baggage" is because of the times I have had to tell customers who called us for service that there wasn't anything I could do for them. Though this is an extreme example, I can cite scores of others cases where we were able do something for the customer though it cost much more than it should have.

Just like DIY electrical work, you can tell when telecom work is done by someone inexperienced in the trade or craft from a mile away. There is a standard way to do things as well as materials to use. When the next guy comes to perform service or make changes he should be able to follow what you have done without too much trouble and have any replacement equipment on the truck.

Two of these customers lived in high end homes on estates, one with out- buildings. Yes, both these systems worked when they were installed. If I remember correctly both had developed wiring/equipment damage problems possibly due to lightning.

The problem was both systems were installed with material and in a way that probably made sense to the original installer, but would have taken us hours to trace out and troubleshoot. This just wasn't economically feasable. Rather than having to charge them hundreds of dollars for what should have been a simple problem, I suggested in each case that the customer call the original installers. Well that's apparently just what they did before calling us.

I suppose you could say that this is job security for the person who did the job originally but the reason we were called was that the original installers 1) never responded to the service call and 2) couldn't fix the problems.

In every case where we run into this situation we always hear the same thing from the more than annoyed customer- "what do I know about telephone systems? He was my ___________ (electrician, alarm guy, computer guy, office equipment supplier... fill in the blank) and he told me he could do a great job".

If you are an electrician you have to have experience working for someone and knowledge of the trade before you can be licensed and go out on your own so there usually isn't this kind of problem there.

Unfortunately anybody can perform telecommunications work, no experience is necessary. Most can run wire, install equipment, get it to work and take the customers money. Few can provide service and are knowledgeable enough to handle problems after the fact and, unlike electrical work, there can be lots of problems and customer hand holding.

Sorry for the rant, I know I haven't provided much encouragement. It's just that your kind of question is like a DIY'er asking how to wire a house. I know you want to learn but your customer shouldn't be your laboratory. The best advice I can give you is to keep your eyes open and make it a point to see how this work is done by others with experience. Familiarize yourself with vendor product lines. Check out BICSI www.bicsi.org . If you like Panasonic attend their certification course which will allow you to purchase all their products.

By the way, Panasonic is not sold to end users and you have to be certified to buy all but the simplest so I wouldn't believe the salesman when he says most systems are installed by owners.

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: communications for high end home

hbiss, I know where you are comming from, and I agree with alot of what you are saying, but not all.
We (my company) are expected by our customers to be able to handle any of this stuff. And quite frankly, I would rather have any of my guys doing structured wiring after a month of services, than some of these so called 'specialists'. Some of these Datt/Comm companies are horrible, and I couldn't tell the difference if a 10 year old installed their systems.
But service is important. You have to know how to install AND service what you are installing.
A company can do this, but the trick is to do it efficently. A supply house, for example, doesn't just sell switchgear. They have a key person who knows switchgear. They also have a key person who knows Datt/Comm. And one who knows architectural lighting, etc. This could be the same key person for one or any number of things.
How about this:
Would you agree that he could 'sub-out' the work?
This keeping him looking good to his GC and having the work done by someone more 'qualified'?

 

[hbiss]

Re: communications for high end home

Luke, subbing out the work is certainly a possibility that should be considered since he is committed to providing this part of the job. We've done that and actually showed other contractors how to terminate cables at the same time so it can be a learning process as well. I agree with you about all datacom contractors not being equal. I could relate horror stories there too.

I think part of the problem with this kind of work is that many underestimate or fail to understand the complexity of it. It's not difficult once you learn but there is a learning curve and the process is different from what you learned as an electrician. That's why electricians are good at running cables but have problems with what to do with them after that.

The temptation is there to "reinvent the wheel" and short cut the learning process. You have a customer who needs it, your supply house has it, the trade magazines say I should be doing it. Why shouldn't I make money providing it?

As I see this there is really three separate things going on here- network cabling, CATV/SAT cabling and voice cabling with a small key system.

No reason cceinak can't learn to install voice and data jacks and terminate the data runs on a patch panel. Gonna take a little learning- 568A or 568B? 8 pin RJ-45 for data, what color? What jack for voice? What pairs do I punch down? What's the color code for 4 pair? Got your 110 punch down tool?

Next is the CATV/SAT. If he has the right crimper and connectors for that particular RG-6 and knows how to properly prepare the cable for the connector no reason he couldn't do that. Going to use F connectors on the wall here. Lots of "keystone" plates will have the modules. At the mechanical room end I wouldn't do anything with the cable home runs unless I were going into the CATV or SAT business. Leave them plenty long enough to reach a large backboard because it sounds like alot of splitters or multi-switches will have to be mounted there. Let the cable company or SAT guy handle it.

Last is the telephone system. (KEY not KEYED) Programming and configuration needed here with possibly a lot of customer "hand holding". The manual that comes with that Panasonic is not the easiest to understand because it's been translated from Japanese Their tech support is abysmal. What phones do I need? There are several. Uses two pairs for each phone. How do I terminate the premises wiring (CAT5) on the system? Single line phones (including cordless) will work but don't try to do any more than answer a call or make one. Things like line selection and hold are out even though you are supposed to be able to do them.

I think the best thing to do here is sub the telephone system out. A dealer can offer other options such as voice mail and other manufacturers besides Panasonic that might be better suited to the customer needs.

 

[cceinak]

Re: communications for high end home

Hello

Hbis, it sounds like you got the total wrong impression from my first post, maybe it was the way I said it. Number one, I am cat 5 certified I have taken two different levition classes on proper term. wire bending. twists, ect. Also, I have been properly taught how to terminate coax cable. We all carry 110 punch down tools that have the 66 punch down knife as well. We also have the proper Coax strippers, crimpers, F connectors ect. Its really not rocket science. I have also used a very nice $6000 HP tester to check all connections. If you look in the back of a Leviton Telecom book book it gives you most anything you need. Wire color codes, 568-A, 568-B terminations, modules, ect. The customer on this particular application doesnt want any video loops, doesnt care about any cameras in rooms, video out to other areas, ect. He wanted a bare bones package. Also, when I say high end home, its not a mansion on anything its about 5000 square feet. Sorry if you got the wrong idea, i just feel that every home is a high end home to the person that is buying it! I agree with you on a lot of areas of what your are saying. I have seen so many hack jobs that have been done by all kinds of trades and its horrid. The problem is that fact that the end user does not know any better. Every person that is footing the bill for a home should get a 100% quality job, and I get upset when they dont as well. In my area, your bare bones basic house will go about $140 a square foot, so of course I want to get it right. Typically, just as one of the posts mentioned I install a piece of plywood to hold my terminations. In most homes, I will mount a piece of plywood to the 2x6 studs, route my cables in a nice bundle, usually using J hooks, (the thinner round bridal rings are now not rated for cat 5) velcro straps, never tie wraps, and then drill a two inch hole at the bottom of the plywood. I have found that a 2 inch plastic connector with a plastic bushing works well to bring the cables from the backside of the phone board to the front. I then route the cables nicely to the proper terminations. It all looks very nice and then I label everything with a number that gets crossed reference to a location in the house.
The area that I have been concerned with in this particular home is the amount of wire going back to the tele closet, in this case the mechanical room. Most all the coax cables that this gentleman is having us install will never get used. I was just askng about a clean patch panel that you could terminate all 30+ cables on to, and then he coud patch to them as he needed or moved his equipment around out in the field. Most of the structured wiring systems that you can buy are fairly small and i didnt want to try and cram all the wires into them. I was thinking more on the lines of a large rack system that has a cat 5 patch panel tier and also a RG6 tier, and then I could patch back and forth from there. I just have not seen one installed for residential homes yet, but was sure that people are doing it all the time. As far as the keyed system, I was asking now, we are just getting going on the house, if he wants one, I will make sure that the research is done correctly, the correct wires are pulled, and that when I go to terminate everything in the tele area, that I have a complete plan on how to bring everything into a clean wire manegement system.
Also, most of the security, alarm, tele techs that I have seen do a completely crappy job. They have never been brought up through the proper training and have realy no idea on how to keep things clean and proper. I would rather pull the wire myself and then if needed, have somebody come in behind me and terminate.

 

[dereckbc]

Re: communications for high end home

You might want to consider a 19 or 24 inch relay rack. Put the Cat-5 in the top, key system center, and coax patch panel lower.

 

[hbiss]

Re: communications for high end home

I'm glad to hear that you really are conscientious about your work and have taken the time to learn how to do it right.

As for your coax management problem, usually we just route them to a suitable location, cut them to length then terminate and label them. We leave the bundle coiled up nice and neat for whoever will be doing the CATV or SAT installation. These will just be connected to ports on splitters or multi- switches anyway so a patch panel really isn't necessary and could actually add another place where problems could crop up.

I suppose if you really wanted to (and I really do applaud your appreciation for aesthetics)you could take a blank rack panel and make your own patch panel. Drill holes and mount F81 barrel connectors with nuts. Mount this to the backboard with a hinged wall bracket just like you would with a RJ45 patch panel.

I wouldn't use a rack cabinet because most everything here except the patch panels is designed to be mounted to the wall.

 

[cceinak]

Re: communications for high end home

Hbiss,

Have you ever seen this before??
found it on the net yesterday.
http://www.futuresmart.com/products/pl.jsp?pl_id=8

 

[hbiss]

Re: communications for high end home

Looks interesting for a residential system. Not sure I like the built in surge supression or CATV amp. Will anybody know it's in there if it fails? I still prefer the flexibility of separate large network, voice and video backboards with everything mounted neatly and logically so you can see everything related to that system at a glance. There are always some devices to be added, especially with voice and CATV/SAT, and you need accessable and ample spare space to mount them.

 

[scott thompson]

Re: communications for high end home

These are two distinct trades and you can't do one without sacrificing something from the
other. You can't install KEY systems one day and change out services the next and expect to
be knowledgeable and proficient in both areas or be taken seriously by your customers.

Glad I have read this, as I must have been fooling myself for so long!

Will now go inform all the Clients I performed successful Design, Engineering and Installations of Electrical Power, Lighting, Comm/Data and CCTV/Security systems for in the past 20 years of this stuff, so they can have "The Right Person" come in and fix my "Mistakes".

Just think of how many Banks in Southern, Central and Northern California have been affected by my inadequate, sub-standard Installations and Designs - let alone all the Office Environments!


Scott35

 

[iwire]

Re: communications for high end home

Originally posted by scott thompson:
I'll go back to my room now...

Don't come out until you call all those customers that you fooled into thinking you did a great job.

[ February 06, 2004, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[roger]

Re: communications for high end home

Scott, you say these banks you designed the security systems for are in Southen Cal hmmmmmm.

Roger

[ February 06, 2004, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

 

[scott thompson]

Re: communications for high end home

Roger;

Scott, you say these banks you designed the security systems for are in Southen Cal
hmmmmmm. (use Homer Simpson voice when reading that sentence)

LOL!!!
More like extreme LOL, or LOL?!

In the spirit of Homer J. Simpson, I reply with:

D'OHHH!!!
I forgot to make the Day Cash Safe Rooms accessible to me...

Scott35