I am Estimating a job where the customer wants to replace 400 lay in fixtures in a 2 story office building. I want to estimate 1 hour per unit which would include un-crating, installation and disposal of the fixture. But I work with a fellow who wants to estimate 3 hrs. per unit.Has anyone done a similar job?
Complete fixture Remodel
- Thread starter dsawyer
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mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
Re: Complete fixture Remodel
Might want to poke your head above the ceiling and make sure the old ones aren't wired in romex. I'm not sure if you'd have to change to MC if that ended up being the case.
I did this in a building that was tight, cluttered, and had people working below me. I averaged 16 to 20 in an 8 hour day, including unboxing, taking them up in the elevator, tearing down the old ones, installing the new ones, and lamping. Have your change orders ready for when they say they'd really like this light or that light moved over a tile and the whip is too short.
Might want to poke your head above the ceiling and make sure the old ones aren't wired in romex. I'm not sure if you'd have to change to MC if that ended up being the case.
I did this in a building that was tight, cluttered, and had people working below me. I averaged 16 to 20 in an 8 hour day, including unboxing, taking them up in the elevator, tearing down the old ones, installing the new ones, and lamping. Have your change orders ready for when they say they'd really like this light or that light moved over a tile and the whip is too short.
tx2step
Senior Member
- Location
- North Texas, DFW area
Re: Complete fixture Remodel
Be sure and look at how the ceiling grid and the existing fixtures are supported and attached. I've seen some AHJs have interesting opinions on what is required.
See 410.16(C).
Will you be doing this while the building is occupied or at night? Any access problems? Occupancy and obstructions will be a big factor.
Depending on what the space is used for, you may want to drape a drop cloth to keep junk from falling on peoples desks, etc.
Choose fixtures that are fairly easy to install, too. Fixture construction can make a difference when you're dealing with 400 of them.
But if the installation is fairly normal, you should be fine at 1 hour per fixture.
Production like mdshunk suggests (16 or more in 8 hours) can often be achieved.
Where will all of the old fixtures and lamps go? Will you need your own dumpster? Any trash fees? Any environmental restrictions on disposing the lamps?
I'd use a couple of 4-wheeled platform dollies -- one to carry the new fixtures and 1 for the old ones.
Be sure and look at how the ceiling grid and the existing fixtures are supported and attached. I've seen some AHJs have interesting opinions on what is required.
See 410.16(C).
Will you be doing this while the building is occupied or at night? Any access problems? Occupancy and obstructions will be a big factor.
Depending on what the space is used for, you may want to drape a drop cloth to keep junk from falling on peoples desks, etc.
Choose fixtures that are fairly easy to install, too. Fixture construction can make a difference when you're dealing with 400 of them.
But if the installation is fairly normal, you should be fine at 1 hour per fixture.
Production like mdshunk suggests (16 or more in 8 hours) can often be achieved.
Where will all of the old fixtures and lamps go? Will you need your own dumpster? Any trash fees? Any environmental restrictions on disposing the lamps?
I'd use a couple of 4-wheeled platform dollies -- one to carry the new fixtures and 1 for the old ones.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Complete fixture Remodel
For 400 fixtures you should be getting them shipped direct from the factory. Because of this you can specify how you want them.
I ask for them lamped, no boxes and palletized in a single row.
All that is left for trash is some plastic shrink wrap and the small easily disposed of pallets.
Get yourself a narrow pallet jack and you will be able to wheel ten 2'x 4' or twenty 2' x 2's through standard width doorways and elevators.
For us the labor saved is worth the special ordering instructions.
For 400 fixtures you should be getting them shipped direct from the factory. Because of this you can specify how you want them.
I ask for them lamped, no boxes and palletized in a single row.
All that is left for trash is some plastic shrink wrap and the small easily disposed of pallets.
Get yourself a narrow pallet jack and you will be able to wheel ten 2'x 4' or twenty 2' x 2's through standard width doorways and elevators.
For us the labor saved is worth the special ordering instructions.
tx2step
Senior Member
- Location
- North Texas, DFW area
Re: Complete fixture Remodel
Bob -- all very good suggestions!
How do you handle getting the old fixtures out? Have you run into any disposal issues with them?
GSA used to have some environmental requirements in disposing of the old lamps, since mercury and other bad stuff can be involved.
The platform dollies that I use fit through 32" doors easily. They are about 24" wide X 48" long, have low steel beds, 2 fixed wheels (about 8" dia.) and 2 swivel casters. A metal handle at one end makes them easy to push or pull. I've used them for a lot of different things, and they'll easily handle several hundred pounds. Very handy.
Bob -- all very good suggestions!
How do you handle getting the old fixtures out? Have you run into any disposal issues with them?
GSA used to have some environmental requirements in disposing of the old lamps, since mercury and other bad stuff can be involved.
The platform dollies that I use fit through 32" doors easily. They are about 24" wide X 48" long, have low steel beds, 2 fixed wheels (about 8" dia.) and 2 swivel casters. A metal handle at one end makes them easy to push or pull. I've used them for a lot of different things, and they'll easily handle several hundred pounds. Very handy.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Re: Complete fixture Remodel
We always use Bob's approach when handling large numbers of fixtures. We order them single stacked on pallets. Since they are already packaged 10 to a skid there is no need to handle them one at a time and stack them on a dolly. We simply roll them into the building on a narrow pallet jack. Since they're only 24" wide they fit easily into elevators and standard door jambs. Then we do the reverse with the old stuff by stacking them on the empty pallets and stretch wrapping them a few times before we wheel them out the door.
We always use Bob's approach when handling large numbers of fixtures. We order them single stacked on pallets. Since they are already packaged 10 to a skid there is no need to handle them one at a time and stack them on a dolly. We simply roll them into the building on a narrow pallet jack. Since they're only 24" wide they fit easily into elevators and standard door jambs. Then we do the reverse with the old stuff by stacking them on the empty pallets and stretch wrapping them a few times before we wheel them out the door.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
Re: Complete fixture Remodel
some fixtures can be ordered with the whips already applied. might be worth looking at.
some fixtures can be ordered with the whips already applied. might be worth looking at.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Re: Complete fixture Remodel
Bob,
You're right they can be ordered with the whips attached and wired to the fixture. I left that out of my post. We always have them shipped tailed and lamped so the installation requires only one connection.
Bob,
You're right they can be ordered with the whips attached and wired to the fixture. I left that out of my post. We always have them shipped tailed and lamped so the installation requires only one connection.
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
Re: Complete fixture Remodel
Personal opinion here... for fixture replacements, I prefer to disconnect the existing whip from the existing fixture and reuse that on the new fixture. Reason being, I only have to work at a height just above the drop ceiling. I don't have to get to whatever height the Jbox above the ceiling might be at. This can often be the difference between just working at 9 feet off the deck versus working 14 feet off the deck.
tx2step
Senior Member
- Location
- North Texas, DFW area
Re: Complete fixture Remodel
I agree with md.
On new work, I often order the fixtures with tails.
On fixture replacement, I try to reuse the tails. If you don't, then you may end up standing on the top of a ladder, up in the ceiling, trying to reach a J-Box that's 4' or 5' above the ceiling.
That's dangerous!
The other option is to use a scaffold and remove part of the ceiling so you can reach the J-Box. That's time consuming and you can damage the ceiling.
Do you guys have any special tricks that you've learned for reaching a J-Box that's 5' above the ceiling grid?
[ July 25, 2005, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: tx2step ]
I agree with md.
On new work, I often order the fixtures with tails.
On fixture replacement, I try to reuse the tails. If you don't, then you may end up standing on the top of a ladder, up in the ceiling, trying to reach a J-Box that's 4' or 5' above the ceiling.
That's dangerous!
The other option is to use a scaffold and remove part of the ceiling so you can reach the J-Box. That's time consuming and you can damage the ceiling.
Do you guys have any special tricks that you've learned for reaching a J-Box that's 5' above the ceiling grid?
[ July 25, 2005, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: tx2step ]
Re: Complete fixture Remodel
special trick?
Use the proper size ladder for the job. Most electricians are at least 5'7" tall on average.
So 10 ft. ceilings? Use an 8 foot ladder to remove the tile then place the appropriate ladder.
If the box is 5 ft above the ceiling, you'd be hitting your head on it.
I also suggest Whipped and Lamped fixtures. Saves alot of labor and disposal. The worse you will have to do is add a 4x4 box to make the connection.
special trick?
Use the proper size ladder for the job. Most electricians are at least 5'7" tall on average.
So 10 ft. ceilings? Use an 8 foot ladder to remove the tile then place the appropriate ladder.
If the box is 5 ft above the ceiling, you'd be hitting your head on it.
I also suggest Whipped and Lamped fixtures. Saves alot of labor and disposal. The worse you will have to do is add a 4x4 box to make the connection.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Re: Complete fixture Remodel
What would you do if the existing tail didn't have an EGC? I've seen many old fixture whips that only have two conductors and many originate from a box with concentric KO's and a fixture voltage of 277 volts. How far should we go to make the new installation code compliant?
We always opt for the new whip with an EGC installed by the manufacturer. It maybe more labor intensive to enter a junction box in the ceiling but many times it's also necessary.
What would you do if the existing tail didn't have an EGC? I've seen many old fixture whips that only have two conductors and many originate from a box with concentric KO's and a fixture voltage of 277 volts. How far should we go to make the new installation code compliant?
We always opt for the new whip with an EGC installed by the manufacturer. It maybe more labor intensive to enter a junction box in the ceiling but many times it's also necessary.
tx2step
Senior Member
- Location
- North Texas, DFW area
Re: Complete fixture Remodel
So you're saying use an 8' ladder to remove a tile, then put a taller ladder (probably a 12' ?) up through the hole? That makes you have to carry and use 2 ladders.
Well, I was trying to find a method that wouldn't require him to remove a ceiling tile. I'd rather have to remove just the fixture. Removing 400 ceiling tiles (and insulation?) takes some time and you'll get some of them dirty and will break some of them, too. So you'd better put some money in to replace some tiles, and hope you can match the existing ones -- but if they're very old, then new tiles won't match (they'll be whiter and probably have a slightly different pattern).
So you're saying use an 8' ladder to remove a tile, then put a taller ladder (probably a 12' ?) up through the hole? That makes you have to carry and use 2 ladders.
Where would you add a new 4" box? Are you saying to add a 4" box to splice the new tail to the end of the old existing tail?
tx2step
Senior Member
- Location
- North Texas, DFW area
Re: Complete fixture Remodel
If it's a hard bid, then you would be governed by the Specs as to what you were responsible to do concerning correcting existing work that doesn't comply with current code. It would most likely result in a change order to bring all of the lighting circuits (including the tails) up to code, if they weren't already compliant.
If he is negotiating a contract with the owner, then I'd give him one price for replacing all of the lights, and a separate unit price for replacing any substandard tails that are found during the replacement.
Most of the owners that I've dealt with would see the wisdom in this, since neither of you know how many (if any) tails might need to be replaced. The other alternative is to play it safe and include replacing all of the tails in your estimate/bid. That could price you out of the job, though.
You could open a few lights and see if there are EGCs in the existing tails, but that still wouldn't tell you if all 400 are the same.
I'd also qualify the bid and put it in the contract that any additional work required on the existing electrical system to bring it up to current code or to pass the AHJ's inspection will be at additional cost to the Owner (i.e. it's not included in your contract scope of work or in your contract price -- it will have to be done by an additive change order)
The OP didn't say what the existing wiring methods are (might be romex, EMT/flex, or...?). Or what the voltage is, or the ceiling height is, or whether it's an open layout or lots of small offices, or if there are a lot of obstructions, or if he'll be doing the work during the day with it occupied or at night with it empty, or... ???
He also didn't say what the bidding or negotiating terms were or if there was other competition.
We're kind of shooting in the dark without knowing more about the specific situation and conditions.
He didn't say if this was a hard bid with plans and Specs. or if it was an estimate to negotiate a contract with the owner.
If it's a hard bid, then you would be governed by the Specs as to what you were responsible to do concerning correcting existing work that doesn't comply with current code. It would most likely result in a change order to bring all of the lighting circuits (including the tails) up to code, if they weren't already compliant.
If he is negotiating a contract with the owner, then I'd give him one price for replacing all of the lights, and a separate unit price for replacing any substandard tails that are found during the replacement.
Most of the owners that I've dealt with would see the wisdom in this, since neither of you know how many (if any) tails might need to be replaced. The other alternative is to play it safe and include replacing all of the tails in your estimate/bid. That could price you out of the job, though.
You could open a few lights and see if there are EGCs in the existing tails, but that still wouldn't tell you if all 400 are the same.
I'd also qualify the bid and put it in the contract that any additional work required on the existing electrical system to bring it up to current code or to pass the AHJ's inspection will be at additional cost to the Owner (i.e. it's not included in your contract scope of work or in your contract price -- it will have to be done by an additive change order)
The OP didn't say what the existing wiring methods are (might be romex, EMT/flex, or...?). Or what the voltage is, or the ceiling height is, or whether it's an open layout or lots of small offices, or if there are a lot of obstructions, or if he'll be doing the work during the day with it occupied or at night with it empty, or... ???
He also didn't say what the bidding or negotiating terms were or if there was other competition.
We're kind of shooting in the dark without knowing more about the specific situation and conditions.
tx2step
Senior Member
- Location
- North Texas, DFW area
Re: Complete fixture Remodel
If this is a negotiated project, I'd try to make the owner responsible for replacement of any damaged ceiling tile.
If that won't fly, then I'd put in a clause that you will replace any damaged tile, but that it may not match the existing tile.
I've seen several occasions where all of the ceiling tile in a room was replaced because one damaged existing tile couldn't be matched. You don't want to pay for that out of your pocket.
If this is a negotiated project, I'd try to make the owner responsible for replacement of any damaged ceiling tile.
If that won't fly, then I'd put in a clause that you will replace any damaged tile, but that it may not match the existing tile.
I've seen several occasions where all of the ceiling tile in a room was replaced because one damaged existing tile couldn't be matched. You don't want to pay for that out of your pocket.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Complete fixture Remodel
If the the existing fixtures are old enough to have PCB ballest, make sure you include this disposal cost as well as that for the old lamps. You may be able to get a scrap yard to provide you with a dumpster for the fixtures after you have removed the lamps, lens, and ballast. The may even pay you a few bucks for the scrap metal.
Don
If the the existing fixtures are old enough to have PCB ballest, make sure you include this disposal cost as well as that for the old lamps. You may be able to get a scrap yard to provide you with a dumpster for the fixtures after you have removed the lamps, lens, and ballast. The may even pay you a few bucks for the scrap metal.
Don
tx2step
Senior Member
- Location
- North Texas, DFW area
Re: Complete fixture Remodel
Same thing with the lamps.
It was expensive and time consuming.
I'd forgotten about that. We did several projects years ago for GSA where we had to remove the ballasts, put them into barrels and have them disposed of as hazardous waste.
Same thing with the lamps.
It was expensive and time consuming.
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