Complete Rewires

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Cavie said:
I can and do force the homeowner to put in anything that is nessesary to bring the house up to currect NEC or they do not pass final inspection. It doesn't matter what the homeowner wants or doesn't want. No tickey, no shirtey.
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Cavie, you and I are on the same page here. If the scope of work involves all of the building(s) or structure(s) served, it is (and I hate to say it as such) a no-brainer that all work touched by the tradesman(men) in the pursuit of rewiring (any part of) the building or structure must meet all parts of the NEC, whether or not it is being enforced by the AHJ of that building or structure.
(I think that sometimes the AHJ is not necessarily on top of the code requirements, but that statement is parenthetical.)
If you're not touching a particular part, then (perhaps) it is exempt, but if you're in it up to your elbows, plan on making it compliant with today's code.

macmikeman, salute. tallgirl, la meme chose (inflection missing 'cause I don't know how). mdshunk, floor receps can meet code, danged right. I know a master who put some in in his own living room :)

Dan
 
mdshunk said:
Thank you, Tallgirl. I still think you're a DIY, but I thank you for getting my back just the same.
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In that case, I take it back! You're WRONG! Floor receptacles don't count because you might put them more than 18" from the wall :)
 
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Big D, you have me confused.

The name of the thread you started is called Complete Rewires

Than you go on to say

Big D 40 said:
His feeling is that when an EXISTING home is totally rewired that you are only obligated by code to wire it to the standard that it was originally wired to.
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What do Totally rewired and Completely rewired mean to you?

To me that means everything is being redone.

Regardless if your installing one receptacle in the kitchen or completely rewiring the house every thing you install new must meet current code.

This is not to say if you add a one duplex in a room that you now must install all the code required receptacles in that room.
 
Cavie said:
I can and do force the homeowner to put in anything that is nessesary to bring the house up to currect NEC or they do not pass final inspection. It doesn't matter what the homeowner wants or doesn't want. No tickey, no shirtey.
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What the heck do you mean?

You can not force a homeowner to rewire an existing home.
 
mdshunk said:
Yeah, I got dinged that way not even a month ago. My proposal said "rewire first floor". I didn't run a new 3-wire for the stairway lights to the upstairs 3 way switch from the switch on the first floor. That didn't fly.
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Was there something wrong with the old piece of 3-wire cable?
 
Technically, if you were rewiring a home with say, black pipe and were just pulling out the old cloth wire and replacing the outlets, we may consider that repair and/or replace and the only thing you might have to do is add smoke detectors (we use a dollar value to decide when they are required).

Now if you are tearing out all of the old wiring method, then I would agree that you would have to bring it up to the new codes.
 
I've done a lot, a LOT of old residential work, it's what I cut my teeth on in my apprenticeship, and even 4-5 years ago it was still a mainstay. I don't know about being Houdini, but it IS a totally different skill set. With enough tricks up your sleeve and some lateral thinking you can bring almost any dwelling into modern compliance with a minimal amount of wiremold, if any.

The same rule always applied, if you're going to wholly reqire, it's got to come into current code, no matter what it takes. Sometimes what it takes is a whole heck of a lot of money. I've had a customer fur out a brick wall 3" and drywall it again to give us wiring space where they didn't want wiremold, but their alternative was stating over again with another electrician.

If I'm liable for it, it goes in right, every time.
 
From an outside point of view, this sounds like one can get hung up on technical wording, and get into lots of trouble.

It sounds like you can do a 'service change' and add new circuits to every room in the house, yet not do a 'complete rewire' and thus not be required to bring every single thing up to current code. As far as the homeowner is concerned, this may have all of the beneficial effect of a 'complete rewire'.

But if you pull a permit for doing a 'complete rewire', then you will have to bring everything up to code. However even in this case the current code requirements are _different_ for old work versus new work. If you re-wire and bring everything up to current code, you are still permitted to fish wires in walls, even though new would would require stapling or other support.

Grounding electrode requirements are different for old work versus new work. (Think concrete encased electrode.)

-Jon
 
I don't understand this "rewire" buzzword.. If a permit application is submitted to me and states "rewire", I still do not have any authority to make the job comply with all of today's requirements. That is to say that they are voluntarily choosing to rewire the house as they see fit. No other construction being done. No gutting rooms, etc. Anything they choose to add must meet todays code for GFi's, AFI's, 20 amp kitchen and bath recepts, etc. But if they want to add receptacles to a bedroom that has none, but not meet today's spacing, that's perfectly legal. But they would need AFI protection.
 
cowboyjwc said:
Now if you are tearing out all of the old wiring method, then I would agree that you would have to bring it up to the new codes.
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I disagree. I had a customer who could not get HO insurance with K & T wiring. We were hired to replace all existing K & T. We went through the house and fished new wiring to every existing receptacle, switch, and light. We did not install receptacles to current codes.

This isn't covered by NEC, though. Local requirements may somehow require what you said, Cowboy.
 
j_erickson,

read what I said in the first part. I would agree that if you were tearing out the K&T that you would not have to bring the whole house up to code. You would have to put in three prong outlets and such, but you are not adding anything.

I look at a complete rewire like a fire job that since the house was damaged they are going to pull out all of the old wiring and rewire the house. Even if the house was built in the 50's they are going to bring the house up to todays standards and that includes a nasty little code that many of you do not have to enforce called the California Energy Code. Now in these instances they usually tear off all of the drywall and take it down to the bear studs.
 
John Erickson makes a very good point. I think you may be able to just replace existing wiring. I have looked over past jobs to see if this would have worked for me ( I don't like to think that I have been doing more work than necessary ). In most cases if this were allowed it would not have made any differance. The reason they wanted them rewired in the first place was so they could put them on the market as homes meeting todays codes ( it's a good selling point with the one year warranty ). Now, if a customer is living in a home and only wants to replace some bad wiring I have the job listed as replacement of bad wiring and not as a rewire. Winnie brings up the idea that this is all a matter of semantics and this is probably correct. Many problems are nothing more than a lack of communication.

I think you have two objectives here. One to meet code and the other is to honor any contract that you enter. If you sign a contract for a complete rewire the customer may well think that they are getting a home that meets all of today's codes. If you plan to do anything less you should state this clearly on the contract. I actually list every receptacle, switch, fixture and circuit so that if a customer wishes to take me to court there can be no doubt that they got what they paid for.
 
I do about 90% residential, with about 70% for an investment company. I have never pulled a permit for a "rewire". The local code requirements for rental properties specify the minimum number of receptacles, lights, etc. Permits are pulled based on the number and type of outlets I am installing.

If the old wiring is in decent shape (yes, even knob and tube), I'll replace the receptacles and switches, etc. I'll put pancake boxes in for light fixtures, since many have no box at all. Kitchens and baths are brought up to today's code and the local ordinances require it anyway.

If receptacles or lights are added, they are of course installed with new wiring methods and meet today's code.

However, on a "complete rewire", meaning to me that every existing circuit is replaced with new cable, I am not required to meet today's code as far as receptacle placement rules. I can recommend it to the homeowner but I cannot make him/her comply. As far as I know, the inspector cannot force compliance either.

For most of my work (ie. investment properties), I am not afraid to knock holes in the wall or ceiling, all lath and plaster, to do the work. The investors realize that it's cheaper for them to have the walls repaired than to pay me to do a "no visible damage" job.

For some customers, however, it is possible to do almost any job with no damage.......but at a price.

Anyway, that's my take on it. If I was required to bring up to code every home in which I replaced existing circuits, there wouldn't be a lot of investment companies calling me. They'd use unlicensed handymen and never bother with permits.

John
 
cowboyjwc said:
j_erickson,

read what I said in the first part. I would agree that if you were tearing out the K&T that you would not have to bring the whole house up to code. You would have to put in three prong outlets and such, but you are not adding anything.
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We're in agreement, then.:)
 
Whats wrong with K&T? Or black iron pipe? If adequate for current use, and often is - depending on the end-user - why not leave it in place, and just ADD new wiring? That said, I pull new wire in old pipe and leave adequately loaded K&T alone all the time or add ground conductors to it.... Might just last another 100 years. Just because we are in the buisiness of selling wire doesnt mean we have to do things that are unnessesary. Not beating the customer to death with things they don't really need will often sell them what they really want. Often that is the chance to keep thier home finishes in the way thay are - they don't want to rip open all the walls.... They want a proffesional opinion on what to keep and what to ditch.
 
Permits here are required, of course. However, permits are pulled by quantity and type of outlets. Receptacle, switch, appliance, etc. If I install say 25 receptacles and 10 lights, I have a total of 35 outlets on the permit.

These would all be required to meet the present code requirements, including AFCI protection for bedroooms, GFCI, etc. For a complete rewire, it's really a matter of pulling the permit for the required type and number of outlets.

That's the way it is here anyway.


John
 
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