Compliant or Not

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infinity said:
Am I the only one that finds have 3' 11" of wall countertop space with no receptacle absolutely stupid?
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No you're not alone. I already said that I would want one, if I were the home owner.

I strongly suspect that the countertop itself would be made as one continuous piece that covers the base of the peninsula section and the base of the 11" wall countertop section. So we can't tell whether,
  1. The base of the wall section is really 3'-11" wide and the peninsula base starts about 2 feet from the wall, or
  2. The base of the wall section is only 11" wide and the peninsula base starts at the wall.

In the 2014 NEC, a peninsula started at the "connecting edge." Well the countertop surface has no connecting edge. In scenario 1 above, the peninsula base connects with the wall section base about 2 feet away from the wall. Was that the intended location of the "connecting edge," as that phrase was used in the 2014 NEC? I don't know. But the 2017 NEC clarified that the structure of the base cabinets is not relevant, and that the peninsula starts at the wall. So in the posted image there is an 11" wall section, and then the peninsula begins.

 
The graphic did not say the living or dining outlet has to be on a non appliance circuit, just that it has to be away from the countertop by 6 feet or non countertop circuits by 12 feet.
 
Chamuit said:
I'm with you and Larry on this.

I would count the 36" section of the peninsula as counter-top for receptacle spacing because it follows the plane of the wall.
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The thing is in 2014 you would have had to count that 36" as countertop for receptacle spacing. A change in last sentence in 210.52(C)(3) in 2017 now says the peninsula starts at the wall, so any one outlet on/near the peninsula can serve the whole peninsula. My guess is the intent was you could put one on that 36" section of wall and meet your (C)(3) requirement and not need the one they showed in OP picture on the side of the cabinet. That one (on the side of the cabinet) has been debated by many for about as long as I can remember as to it should be something code should require. Now they found a way to get around it, but created a conflict with what we have been used to for years.
 
Adamjamma said:
The graphic did not say the living or dining outlet has to be on a non appliance circuit, just that it has to be away from the countertop by 6 feet or non countertop circuits by 12 feet.
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My point was that if it was the dining room to the far right it could be on a small appliance branch circuit but not if the room were a living room.
 
infinity said:
Am I the only one that finds have 3' 11" of wall countertop space with no receptacle absolutely stupid? :slaphead:
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My post just before yours states I would never do it that way but....

I probably posted as you were typing....

I think we all think it is dumb but by definition the peninsula connects at the wall and only requires one receptacle. The one on the end satisfies that.

Now if there was one on the wall over the peninsula then one would not be needed at the end of the peninsula.


enhance
 
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Dennis Alwon said:
I think we all think it is dumb but by definition the peninsula connects at the wall and only requires one receptacle. The one on the end satisfies that.

Now if there was one on the wall over the peninsula then one would not be needed at the end of the peninsula.
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I agree with both of your statements and from the 2017 NEC's perspective I find them equally as dumb. :rant:
 
I think possibly their intention was to allow the receptacle at the wall to serve the peninsula, but what they changed might have led to allowing circumstances they never thought about being a possibility that otherwise complies with what they wrote. Anybody know if there will likely be changes to this in 2020?
 
Isn't the 48" counter receptacle philosophy predicated on most countery top appliances for kitchens having short {24" or less} cords? ~RJ~
 
kwired said:
I think possibly their intention was to allow the receptacle at the wall to serve the peninsula, but what they changed might have led to allowing circumstances they never thought about being a possibility that otherwise complies with what they wrote. Anybody know if there will likely be changes to this in 2020?
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I believe there are some crazy proposal for 2020. Not sure what their status is.
 
There is a proposal to delete all peninsular & Island section and treat everything as countertop with a 36" rule or a 24" rule-- your choice... That's odd
 
Dennis Alwon said:
My point was that if it was the dining room to the far right it could be on a small appliance branch circuit but not if the room were a living room.
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OK. I agree with you on that. I am unsure as to why they make the use of the dining area subject to Appliances.. mixer on table? Perhaps they should just require 20 amp circuit for dining, living and kitchen, and fifteen in bedrooms but suggest 20 for all home outlet circuits? I mean, many living rooms have so much between game system, tv, sound bars, amplifiers, etc, on circuit, would preferr to run 20 amps to it, myself...lol
 
Adamjamma said:
OK. I agree with you on that. I am unsure as to why they make the use of the dining area subject to Appliances.. mixer on table? Perhaps they should just require 20 amp circuit for dining, living and kitchen, and fifteen in bedrooms but suggest 20 for all home outlet circuits? I mean, many living rooms have so much between game system, tv, sound bars, amplifiers, etc, on circuit, would preferr to run 20 amps to it, myself...lol
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TV and audio equipment are low level loads compared to a lot of what you find in the kitchen. Why the dining room, breakfast room, pantry, and such on the SABC? People likely aren't cooking in some of those areas, but consider a party atmosphere where you maybe have warming appliances to keep things at a desirable serving temperature. The rooms mentioned have been there for a very long time, possibly ever since SABC requirements were introduced.
 
"In The Beginning" there were appliances, new to the public. Look at ads from the 10s and 20s. Waffle irons and toasters were on dining tables and buffets. Make your food right at the table and serve it hot. I even have a marshmallow cooker that was designed for dining table use! And there were table top cigar lighters, electric.

I have worked on older homes where there was a hole in the dining room floor to get power to the dining table.

So I guess the requirement for SABC in dining rooms is a hangover from these times.;)

Just found a marshmallow cooker like mine on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQgmfoQvzVs
 
macmikeman said:
The receptacle outlets are bigger than the chair. I'd like to purchase me some of those for times when the drywall guy cuts the box hole an extra inch around all sides , and they don't even bother to tape any of the opening they just made in the wall...... So please provide a link to that supplier.
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Hey, Joe (the guy who did this)said to stop picking on his drawing. :D He said they have someone starting soon who has the ability to produce quality drawings. I'll tell you that I stink at it and what Joe did is better than what I could do.:p
 
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