- Location
- Massachusetts
Andrew if you look at 334.40(B) 2008 it becomes clear that for some types of work these can end up concealed when the cable is fished in.
I imagine the thought being if you can fish it in you can get it back out.
Concealed wall romex splice
- Thread starter Minuteman
- Start date
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Andrew if you look at 334.40(B) 2008 it becomes clear that for some types of work these can end up concealed when the cable is fished in.
I imagine the thought being if you can fish it in you can get it back out.
Bernard1599
Senior Member
- Location
- Maryland
GUNNING
Senior Member
- Location
- Gainesville, Florida
smoke and flames are more expensive than an electrician.
smoke and flames are more expensive than an electrician.
They sell these things now in my local HOME DEsPOT. Ugh. They are the connectors that always burn out on crossovers in mobile homes. I also saw them on This Old House. It showed a prefab home with them in the wall panels. That $8 device is going to cost a couple of grand later on if someone puts a wall heater or blow dryer on it. Ugh.
The ones I have also seen are 3M.
On the bright side think of all those arc fault breakers we can sell!:smile:
smoke and flames are more expensive than an electrician.
They sell these things now in my local HOME DEsPOT. Ugh. They are the connectors that always burn out on crossovers in mobile homes. I also saw them on This Old House. It showed a prefab home with them in the wall panels. That $8 device is going to cost a couple of grand later on if someone puts a wall heater or blow dryer on it. Ugh.
The ones I have also seen are 3M.
On the bright side think of all those arc fault breakers we can sell!:smile:
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
My take is that the wiring may be concealed, but not the device.
Minuteman
Senior Member
- Location
- The Sooner Nation
My guy at CED has ordered some for stock, but I have since moved on and figured out another way of fixing the problem. Never thought about looking at Home Depot.
334.40 (B)... Openings in such devices shall form a close fit around the outer covering of the cable, and the device shall fully enclose the part of the cable from which any part of the covering has been removed. Where connections to conductors are by binding-screw terminals, there shall be available as many terminals as conductors
I would take this to mean, that some of these are spring pressure connection (like a wago) and some are binding-screw. The closing of the device to form fit the cable, seems to be so as to address arcing. IF IT IS ALLOWABLE to conceal, I would say it would only be the spring pressure type. I know that this article didn't say as much, just my humble opinion.
334.40 (B)... Openings in such devices shall form a close fit around the outer covering of the cable, and the device shall fully enclose the part of the cable from which any part of the covering has been removed. Where connections to conductors are by binding-screw terminals, there shall be available as many terminals as conductors
I would take this to mean, that some of these are spring pressure connection (like a wago) and some are binding-screw. The closing of the device to form fit the cable, seems to be so as to address arcing. IF IT IS ALLOWABLE to conceal, I would say it would only be the spring pressure type. I know that this article didn't say as much, just my humble opinion.
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peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
quogueelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- new york
If you come to the meet and greet you will hit your 70,000 mark for sure!!!The gray matter between my ears.
I also have the same folders in several of my computers with PDFs and other documents and such saved. Because of the redundancy, I am quite familar with the location of a lot of the folders. Once in a while I may have to search through a few additional folders, trying to remember where my stuff is.
The folders for my pictures also mirror these other folders. The only problem with the pictures of late is that there are so many, I may have to add some additional folders. The only reason I have not done so, is it will require my attention for several days. (I am just shy of 70,000 saved pictures)
buzzbar
Senior Member
- Location
- Olympia, WA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Wow, your are correct. This certainly seems like a recipe for disaster. Thanks for pointing that out.
Andrew
Andrew
Minuteman
Senior Member
- Location
- The Sooner Nation
How do you inspectors interpret these gizmos?
mthead
Senior Member
- Location
- Long Beach,NY
Concealed wall romex splice
Bob ,UNFORTUNATELY it would appear that both the manufacturers instructions and code "As currently written" do,as you say, allow for the possible use of these connectors in an "old work " application--i.e. concealed snaked work.
I emphasize 'unfortuntely because it would seem to me that this allowance is fraught with potential for abuse by some who would be aware of the difiiculty that this reading of code creates a potential impossibility for an inspector to verify that the method was employed correctly--short of requesting the wall be opened where it was used or the listing on any certificate to indicate that because this product was used ther was now an inherent liability created that no inspection agency-state or private would want to be part of.
Let's be realistic here -this device seems like taking the worst part of speed wiring[push-in]of devices to the absolute worst possible extreme-lets reproduce the problems incurred by that cheesy method of wiring and multiply it byeliminating the box and putting the stress on it that occurs during snaking of wires.
The only time that this splicing device could be used safely would be when the walls are open--
Perhaps therein lies the answer--if you use them when the walls are open-you must by definition then treat the work as new work and keep junction/splice points accessible-
and if you use them when snaking wiring -and mention it to the inspector -he can indicate it on your certificate-and your responsibility for deciding to use it-and if you don't mention it-and it pulls apart during the snaking of wires ---
My point is I think it is one of the more absurd things I've seen yet as being allowed-and while I couldn't violate it-you can be sure that I would dicourage its use as propsed here and be sure that within legal rights I would distance myself and my company from liability in a situation where an applicant used it "as a method of an open splice in a wall with no accessibilty"
Bob ,UNFORTUNATELY it would appear that both the manufacturers instructions and code "As currently written" do,as you say, allow for the possible use of these connectors in an "old work " application--i.e. concealed snaked work.
I emphasize 'unfortuntely because it would seem to me that this allowance is fraught with potential for abuse by some who would be aware of the difiiculty that this reading of code creates a potential impossibility for an inspector to verify that the method was employed correctly--short of requesting the wall be opened where it was used or the listing on any certificate to indicate that because this product was used ther was now an inherent liability created that no inspection agency-state or private would want to be part of.
Let's be realistic here -this device seems like taking the worst part of speed wiring[push-in]of devices to the absolute worst possible extreme-lets reproduce the problems incurred by that cheesy method of wiring and multiply it byeliminating the box and putting the stress on it that occurs during snaking of wires.
The only time that this splicing device could be used safely would be when the walls are open--
Perhaps therein lies the answer--if you use them when the walls are open-you must by definition then treat the work as new work and keep junction/splice points accessible-
and if you use them when snaking wiring -and mention it to the inspector -he can indicate it on your certificate-and your responsibility for deciding to use it-and if you don't mention it-and it pulls apart during the snaking of wires ---
My point is I think it is one of the more absurd things I've seen yet as being allowed-and while I couldn't violate it-you can be sure that I would dicourage its use as propsed here and be sure that within legal rights I would distance myself and my company from liability in a situation where an applicant used it "as a method of an open splice in a wall with no accessibilty"
If you're fishing wire, why would you need such a thing? If you can reach point A from point B, what is the advantage of putting a splice inbetween?
In all my years of fishing NM, I've never entertained the idea of being able to just put a splice somewhere in the wall.
That seems to me to be a very (,very)good point
- Location
- Massachusetts
I have never used one either but they could be handy to tap an existing NM that has no slack.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
I've never used one also, but another place they might come in handy is during remodeling where a wall is taken out and cables pass through that need to be relocated and you don't have access to one end of the cable or the other. I've been in that situation and putting in a j-box was VERY inconvenient.
GUNNING
Senior Member
- Location
- Gainesville, Florida
people have been doin this for years
people have been doin this for years
Does this mean we can use wire nuts and a couple of wraps from a roll of 3m 33+ to insulate and not use a box??? If so Ive seen a bunch of that under kitchen cabinets (minus the tape). Hmmm ... wire nuts are not listed as suitable to mechanically splice wires?
people have been doin this for years
Does this mean we can use wire nuts and a couple of wraps from a roll of 3m 33+ to insulate and not use a box??? If so Ive seen a bunch of that under kitchen cabinets (minus the tape). Hmmm ... wire nuts are not listed as suitable to mechanically splice wires?
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
I have used the tap version several times for exactly that reason, and only to supply a wall-mounted flat-panel TV, which I consider to be a known, relatively-low-current load.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Wires, yes; cables, no.
Minuteman
Senior Member
- Location
- The Sooner Nation
My thoughts exactly.
TwinCitySparky
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
I remember going to a job last year where the boss had just given the "OK" to another guy to bury one of these in a wall (remodel).
I lost every bit of respect for the guy right then and there.
The ability to learn/demonstrate common sense should be taught somewhere...
I lost every bit of respect for the guy right then and there.
The ability to learn/demonstrate common sense should be taught somewhere...
ohm
Senior Member
- Location
- Birmingham, AL
I remember going to a job last year where the boss had just given the "OK" to another guy to bury one of these in a wall (remodel).
I lost every bit of respect for the guy right then and there.
The ability to learn/demonstrate common sense should be taught somewhere...
Well said. I would rather bury a handybox in the wall than use a device that relies on a spring loaded contact (sounds an awful lot like a back-stabbed receptacle WITHOUT the box around it).
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