Condo-townhouses; Separate Buildings?

[JoeStillman]

Article 100 says a firewall makes a structure a building. So four townhouses separated by firewalls would be considered four "buildings." Common practice is to put a meter center with four breakers at one end and run SER feeders to each dwelling unit with firestopping at each firewall.

Does this comply with 225.30?

225.30 Number of Supplies. A building or other structure that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load side of a service disconnecting means shall be supplied by only one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in 225.30(A) through (E). For the purpose of this section, a multiwire branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit. Where a branch circuit or feeder originates in these additional buildings or other structures, only one feeder or branch circuit shall be permitted to supply power back to the original building or structure, unless permitted in 225.30(A) through (E).​

How about 225.31?

225.31 Disconnecting Means. Means shall be provided for disconnecting all ungrounded conductors that supply or pass through the building or structure.​

We tried to tell an owner to run the feeders under the slab to each dwelling unit, but he wants to do it with SER between the second floor joists.

 

[petersonra]

Article 100 says a firewall makes a structure a building. So four townhouses separated by firewalls would be considered four "buildings." Common practice is to put a meter center with four breakers at one end and run SER feeders to each dwelling unit with firestopping at each firewall.

Does this comply with 225.30?

225.30 Number of Supplies. A building or other structure that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load side of a service disconnecting means shall be supplied by only one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in 225.30(A) through (E). For the purpose of this section, a multiwire branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit. Where a branch circuit or feeder originates in these additional buildings or other structures, only one feeder or branch circuit shall be permitted to supply power back to the original building or structure, unless permitted in 225.30(A) through (E).​

I don't see how conductors merely passing through a structure can be considered to "serve" or "supply" that structure.

How about 225.31?

225.31 Disconnecting Means. Means shall be provided for disconnecting all ungrounded conductors that supply or pass through the building or structure.​

is there a way to disconnect these conductors somewhere? Like via the breaker at the meter?

We tried to tell an owner to run the feeders under the slab to each dwelling unit, but he wants to do it with SER between the second floor joists.

I don't see how the provisions you mentioned prohibit the installation as described. that does not mean it is a good idea or that some other provision does not prohibit the installation.

In any case, I don't see how conductors in an attic con be considered "outside" and article 225 is entitled Outside Branch Circuits and Feeders.

Look at 225.32.

 

[gadfly56]

I don't see how the provisions you mentioned prohibit the installation as described. that does not mean it is a good idea or that some other provision does not prohibit the installation.

In any case, I don't see how conductors in an attic con be considered "outside" and article 225 is entitled Outside Branch Circuits and Feeders.

Look at 225.32.

Are these notes yours?

I don't see how conductors merely passing through a structure can be considered to "serve" or "supply" that structure.

is there a way to disconnect these conductors somewhere? Like via the breaker at the meter?

In the first case, there is no mention in the OP of serve or supply with regard to the intervening structures.

In the second case, the OP mentions "four breakers".

No one said anything about running in an attic. :?

 

[petersonra]

Are these notes yours?



In the first case, there is no mention in the OP of serve or supply with regard to the intervening structures.

In the second case, the OP mentions "four breakers".

No one said anything about running in an attic. :?

He did say 2nd floor joists. The point is they are not outside.

I did point out the breakers but it is not clear to me that they would be allowed as the disconnecting means do the requirements in the next paragraph of the code that I also mentioned he should look at. I don't see how you can do what is being suggested and meet the requirements of that paragraph.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Article 100 says a firewall makes a structure a building. So four townhouses separated by firewalls would be considered four "buildings." Common practice is to put a meter center with four breakers at one end and run SER feeders to each dwelling unit with firestopping at each firewall.

Does this comply with 225.30?

225.30 Number of Supplies. A building or other structure that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load side of a service disconnecting means shall be supplied by only one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in 225.30(A) through (E). For the purpose of this section, a multiwire branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit. Where a branch circuit or feeder originates in these additional buildings or other structures, only one feeder or branch circuit shall be permitted to supply power back to the original building or structure, unless permitted in 225.30(A) through (E).​

How about 225.31?

225.31 Disconnecting Means. Means shall be provided for disconnecting all ungrounded conductors that supply or pass through the building or structure.​

We tried to tell an owner to run the feeders under the slab to each dwelling unit, but he wants to do it with SER between the second floor joists.

He did say 2nd floor joists. The point is they are not outside.

I did point out the breakers but it is not clear to me that they would be allowed as the disconnecting means do the requirements in the next paragraph of the code that I also mentioned he should look at. I don't see how you can do what is being suggested and meet the requirements of that paragraph.

Does this owner expect to have just a meter socket on the outside and no Disco or overcurrent device outside. If yes this seems very cheap , unsafe and petty. Why would anyone want unfused wiring running between units or at any distance where could be damaged and cause problems. At some point they need to enter a panel in the individual unit. It is there that someone can pierce the wire running up the wall. Seen it happen. Big boom results and a huge black mark till the conductor burns free.

Why not install a multi meter pack and run the feeders up a common wall or chase like the plumbers do. I would never run horizontal in the ceiling of another unit. Maybe in the attic common area.

 

[gadfly56]

He did say 2nd floor joists. The point is they are not outside.

I did point out the breakers but it is not clear to me that they would be allowed as the disconnecting means do the requirements in the next paragraph of the code that I also mentioned he should look at. I don't see how you can do what is being suggested and meet the requirements of that paragraph.

I'll grant you that 225.32 is a tough hurdle to clear with the proposed installation. I'm not seeing anyone trying to stuff the joist space with concrete or brick any time soon.

 

[gadfly56]

Does this owner expect to have just a meter socket on the outside and no Disco or overcurrent device outside. If yes this seems very cheap , unsafe and petty. Why would anyone want unfused wiring running between units or at any distance where could be damaged and cause problems. At some point they need to enter a panel in the individual unit. It is there that someone can pierce the wire running up the wall. Seen it happen. Big boom results and a huge black mark till the conductor burns free.

Why not install a multi meter pack and run the feeders up a common wall or chase like the plumbers do. I would never run horizontal in the ceiling of another unit. Maybe in the attic common area.

If there is a fire wall, it runs through the attic and extends ~24" above the roof line. Also, still not allowed by 225.32 unless you comply with 230.6.

 

[Sierrasparky]

If there is a fire wall, it runs through the attic and extends ~24" above the roof line. Also, still not allowed by 225.32 unless you comply with 230.6.

When using a multi meter pack with main breaker for each tennant there is no issue for 230.6 as these are not service wires.

225.32 would be compliant as the Feeders would have a disconnect at the point upon which it enters. There is no distinction as to what partition or section of a structure. Just that where it first enters. It would be absurd to think that you would need disconnects at each passage through a building fire wall. Nothing would ever be legit.

Am I missing something!

 

[gadfly56]

When using a multi meter pack with main breaker for each tennant there is no issue for 230.6 as these are not service wires.

225.32 would be compliant as the Feeders would have a disconnect at the point upon which it enters. There is no distinction as to what partition or section of a structure. Just that where it first enters. It would be absurd to think that you would need disconnects at each passage through a building fire wall. Nothing would ever be legit.

Am I missing something!

If each unit is considered a separate building, as proposed by the OP, rather than one building with 3 interior fire walls, then you can't do as you suggest.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Sounds to me like one building with firewalls. You can't be a townhome without shared wall.

 

[gadfly56]

Sounds to me like one building with firewalls. You can't be a townhome without shared wall.

You can take that to the opposite extreme as well. Look at the work for LaGardia, here. You see the building connected to the concourses by those bridges? Well all together, they are considered one single building. I don't know how the architects did it, but the PA bought into that claim.

 

[Sierrasparky]

You can take that to the opposite extreme as well. Look at the work for LaGardia, here. You see the building connected to the concourses by those bridges? Well all together, they are considered one single building. I don't know how the architects did it, but the PA bought into that claim.

i suppose but there are definitions of Townhome and one includes SHARED WALL ,

 

[gadfly56]

i suppose but there are definitions of Townhome and one includes SHARED WALL ,

Well the NEC doesn't have anything at all on townhomes or townhouses, and the IBC definition doesn't mention a shared wall. Come to think of it, a shared wall doesn't in and of itself mean that it's one building, especially if it's a firewall.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Well the NEC doesn't have anything at all on townhomes or townhouses, and the IBC definition doesn't mention a shared wall. Come to think of it, a shared wall doesn't in and of itself mean that it's one building, especially if it's a firewall.

Well most codes do reference common dictionary definitions. the peoples republic of Kalifornia does. I only know some of the other states such as AZ, WA so can't speak for others.

 

[JoeStillman]

Just to clarify, there are breakers in the meter center. The architect does insist that they are separate buildings.

 

[gadfly56]

Just to clarify, there are breakers in the meter center. The architect does insist that they are separate buildings.

If and only if we accept the architect's claim, I don't think you can run the feeders for one building through another. I think 225.32 applies, and as soon as you enter the the second building you need disconnects for all three of the feeders.

 

[JoeStillman]

...In any case, I don't see how conductors in an attic con be considered "outside" and article 225 is entitled Outside Branch Circuits and Feeders
Look at 225.32.

If I'm "inside" Tom's house I'm "outside" Dick's and Harry's.

 

[JoeStillman]

My problem here is that logic doesn't necessarily apply. From my point of view (and the owner's), it's no different from a 4-unit apartment building. Just because it can be considered four separate buildings, does that mean it must be considered four separate buildings?

The dwelling units are condo's, so ownership and management of the structure as a whole is by one entity. The dwellers of the units only own the air space from paint-to-paint.

 

[stevenje]

Just to clarify, there are breakers in the meter center. The architect does insist that they are separate buildings.

You need to contact a building official to get ruling on what is a building, a structure and firewall as it pertains to your project.

If the architect has the final say on the building/structure/fire wall definition, then just install your feeders from the outdoor meter pack to each unit on the outside of the building until you enter into each "structure".

It will cost more and look like cr**, but should should solve the issue.

 

[Sierrasparky]

You need to contact a building official to get ruling on what is a building, a structure and firewall as it pertains to your project.

If the architect has the final say on the building/structure/fire wall definition, then just install your feeders from the outdoor meter pack to each unit on the outside of the building until you enter into each "structure".

It will cost more and look like cr**, but should should solve the issue.

Not to mention that you may need to put a disco on the outside of each unit as it is a separate structure as the Symantec world turns.