Condo unit with tripping main breaker

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ptonsparky

ptonsparky

Tom
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
satcom said:
It says Master Electrician, in his profile, I would like to know what state licenses a Master that does not understand the extreme danger in fault current, that situation can produce. I also can't believe the 5 plus years of training it took to reach master level, din't cover fault dangers
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I haven't taken a test lately but don't remember anything about the dangers of fault current being on it. Our test was over the NEC and did not include fault current calculations or the forces involved.

I would like to know what state does require a full and complete understanding, testing, or even a class on fault currents before taking a Masters exam.

bjp has come to a good spot for help.
 
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hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
Service is a totally different animal from new construction, nearly everything you work on is live, and almost everything you work on is broken one way or another, That's why your there to fix it. PPE is a good thing to have,but is expensive, uncomfortable, hot, hard to work in. The gloves make it virtually impossible to work in tight spaces. Definitely the 40 cal suits. But then again third degree burns are also expensive, uncomfortable, hot and hard to work with. I have never seen a main breaker interlocked to trip removing the cover, but have seen them interlocked to where the cover cannot be removed without turning it off. Working with arc flash hazards are an OSHA training thing. Smaller companies usually don't have this training due to expense if they have any turnover rate at all. As others have said, it would be a good idea to have the POCO turn off the power before removing the cover since the breaker is questionable.
 
mdshunk

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
When you get into some of those bigger breakers, sometimes they can be semi-standardized frame sizes, where you can get a lot of things to fit.
 
zog

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
Havent seen a breaker type posted by the OP yet, so any guesses on where to get one or how much it will cost is pure speculation. We are by far the largest supplier of power circuit breakers in North America, most of those websites that were posted as examples dont actually have any breakers in stock, they just know who to call to order it.

I am also concerned about the lack of concern for the hazards with this job, use of PPE anmd safe work practices.
 
mdshunk

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
zog said:
Sorry, dosent work that way, believe me I wish it did.
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Then the Westinghouse/GE/ITE gear I just worked on two Tuesdays ago was my imagination? :D I should take a picture of the Zinsco/Challenger MDP that I'm going to add a breaker to coming up in the next few weeks.
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
mdshunk said:
Then the Westinghouse/GE/ITE gear I just worked on two Tuesdays ago was my imagination? :D I should take a picture of the Zinsco/Challenger MDP that I'm going to add a breaker to coming up in the next few weeks.
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It seems your MO would have to change if you were getting inspections.
 
growler

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
iwire said:
Yeah, that is something I would be proud to point out.

My work pases because the inspectors are bad.
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It may sound bad but it does happen more than most people would think.

I tell customers to get inspections ( how important they are) but if anyone depends on inspections for code compliant work then they are taking their chances.

In the end it's really up to the EC.
 
S

satcom

Senior Member
growler said:
It may sound bad but it does happen more than most people would think.

I tell customers to get inspections ( how important they are) but if anyone depends on inspections for code compliant work then they are taking their chances.

In the end it's really up to the EC.
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Am I reading this correct? "I tell customers to get inspections ( how important they are)"

Customers don't have a choice in my state, the law requires inspections, and I is our job, to file and seal, the permit, not the customers.

We have well trained inspectors, that have to meet tough standards to enter the profession, I do understand there are places where the inspectors, may not have such requirements. But never leave it to the customer to call for an inspection, protect your license, and liability exposure, file and follow up all inspections.
 
growler

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
satcom said:
Am I reading this correct? "I tell customers to get inspections ( how important they are)"

Customers don't have a choice in my state, the law requires inspections, and I is our job, to file and seal, the permit, not the customers.
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When I do an electrical only job there is no problem with permits and inspections. I get the required permits.

If I look at a job tomorrow, a basement finish or room addition and the customer refuses to get a building permit all I can do is suggest that they get the job permitted. I turn the work down if it's done under the table but that doesn't keep the job from getting done ( actually about 50% of these jobs are done in an illegal manner). I used to turn people in for doing un-permited jobs but that doesn't make a lot of friends so now I only make suggestions. If I'm not doing the work then why should I care, no skin off my knuckles.

These days I just ask over the phone if they are going to permit the work and if they say no then I don't even bother to look at it. They will not issue an electrical permit without a building permit on a remodel, so I'm forced to pass up a lot of work.
 
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charlietuna

Senior Member
Years ago a large office building asked us to upgrade a breaker fed off a bus duct riser manufacturered by ITE. All we had to do is set an 800 amp bust tap-480 volt three phase-four wire. There was an open space on the bus duct for the new breaker. I got the information off the bus duct's nameplate and ordered the breaker. The supply house called back and asked me "which side is the neutral bus was located. I called the ITE rep and asked him if there was any problem removing this access plate with the bus "HOT"! "NO PROBLEM" was his reply, "IT"S ALL PLASTIC"! Well there is a small retaining plate inside--- which caused quite an explosion !! the rep, to this day, swears the retailer was plastic??? Thank GOD no one was hurt !! I have come across some strange things around switchgear and offen wonder if they were factory installed or "rigged" in the field. Another major explosion was caused by a triangular steel plate that the 4000 amp switchgear's lifting eye was screwed into?? Apparently the paint held it in place after the lifting eye was removed---but later(5 years) it fell into the vault's bus stab -- major blow up!!!
 
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bjp_ne_elec

Senior Member
Location
Southern NH
ptonsparky said:
I haven't taken a test lately but don't remember anything about the dangers of fault current being on it. Our test was over the NEC and did not include fault current calculations or the forces involved.

I would like to know what state does require a full and complete understanding, testing, or even a class on fault currents before taking a Masters exam.

bjp has come to a good spot for help.
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Ptonsparky - thanks for the positive note. You're exactly right - I went through and IBEW JW training and did not receive anything on the dangers of arc fault - but I went through 20 years ago. So hopefully this has been added. Back then we didn't even have arc flash clothing even available - at least not to my knowledge. I did get some arc fault training from the result of this thread - and learned quite a bit - so I'm growing. I always say, if I end the day and didn't learn something new, than I didn't have a good day.

Some of the feedback was firm, and at first my pride was a little hurt - but the folks were only looking out for my safety - and I appreciate all the replies. Even the ones that seemed to question my credentials. This site has a great bunch of guys, and although my "feathers were a little ruffled" at some of the replies - each had a great point.

As it turns out, the folks in the condo association didn't wait for my return call. They got a guy to come over and he had no problem pulling the cover, adjusted the settings on the fuse, reset and handed them a bill. No megger, no arc flash protection - nadah. Twenty minutes after he walked away, the breaker tripped. I know someone who lives in one of the condo complex - not in the affected unit - but he said the guy basically was wearing jeans and a nylon jacket. Now I know enough that I wouldn't even think of having a nylon jacket on if I'm simply pulling a receptacle out of the wall.

As always, I learned from the feedback - and on this particular thread learned a TON! Thanks for all the feedback, as it was an education. I'm going to team up with an electrician that does have experience with this type of work, has arc flash gear, and is willing to have me tag along. We've recommended to the residents to assume temporary residence for a few days (heck they should be used to this as this area was without power for six days) and not to even think of resetting the breaker. We'll be getting the POCO to do the disconnect and then get in to the gear to see what's going on.

Thanks again
 
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lbwireman

lbwireman

Senior Member
Location
Long Beach, CA
Bad Idea

Bad Idea

Let me add my agreement to what's been said by mxslick #14, charlietuna #15, buckofdurham #18 and fulthrotl #19. This is not a job to approach with the "I gotta learn somehow" attitude. 35 years + in this trade, a lot of service work both resi & comm have tought me that the words of my flight instructor, many years ago, re: pilots, apply equally to electricians.

"There are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are no old, bold pilots."

Don't work this one hot. We'd like to continue enjoying your posts for years to come.:smile:
 
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charlietuna

Senior Member
bjp,
No need to appolagize for not knowing anything in this trade! There are many,many facits of this industry that i know nothing about because i've never had the oppurtunity to work around them. And your customers don't know your expertice when they call you. I have had calls on programable controllers on big printing presses that i just had to tell the custormer to call the manufacturer. But i believe most of the comments listed were ment to lead you away from a dangerous situation.

As you told us about this guy adjusting the trip setpoint of this breaker and walking away i said "he'll be back"!!! Without knowing what the load is on this breaker--makes the statement that person is "just guessing" at what the problem is ! Breakers trip for a reason--and when they trip they are sending the operator a warning signal. Heed the warning and walk softly!! I know one building maintainance engineer that was called due to a 600 amp-480 volt breaker trip ! He found the tripped breaker and reset it- it tripped again with a load "pop" -- he reset it again and it blew the heavy panel cover right off the hinges braking his wrist in two places and burning 30 percent of him.
 
mxslick

mxslick

Senior Member
Location
SE Idaho
Here's the danger involved..

Here's the danger involved..

Not to beat a dead horse here, but I found THIS VIDEO of a breaker very similar to what the OP describes, and the results of an arc flash.

Remember this when you go to reset ANY breaker in questionable condition, or when the cause of the trip is unknown.

Edited to add: And of all of the arc flash incidents I've seen over the years, both in person and on video, this one rates as a medium blast..still plenty dangerous regardless.
 
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