Conductor Size Larger than Breaker

[dnem]

But if you're an inspector, you'll have to inspect 100% of the installations and come up with ways of dealing with less than A+ contractors.

You pass them when they meet the NEC or you fail them when they don't meet the NEC. Any 'dealing with them' beyond that is beyond your authority.

Why don?t you read my post again. . You seem to have gotten up on the wrong side of the bed today. . When I talk about making notations about the installation and use the word ?dealing?, it seems to offend you.

Oh well ! . That?s life !

David

 

[dnem]

I have seen this many times #10 0n an sp 20 #12 0n a sp 15....etc. or a # 12 on a (2p 40......A/C unit per manuf. label). As an Inspector myself. I will usually do my home work on the job.

It?s a different situation when we?re talking about 240v circuits or commercial project circuiting. . Commercial projects have detailed prints and as-builts that can be reviewed to pick up this kind of information. . 240v circuits should be checked out on both equipment and panel end by the inspector, at the time of the inspection.

It?s the 120v residential circuits that are the issue. . If I come to a house for a service inspection and find the main panel has been changed, how could I find out if the 12gauge HR terminated on a 20a breaker is a complete 12gauge circuit ?

If I have no idea what the EC did and he or she were not there at time of Inspection, I simply leave a form.....call me.....and let's go over it, or I will meet you on the job the next day....etc.

?not there at time of Inspection?
120v residential circuit
12gauge HR terminated on a 20a breaker
What would cause me to even ask the question ? . Should I call about every single 120v circuit on every single residential inspection ?

A lot of Inspectors get a bad wrap due to some "Loose cannon" or "ego tripin" type "power hungry rookie" Inspectors out there. EI's should at least have a minimum of 10yrs. "Valid" Electrical installation experience and be currently ICC Certified as an Electrical Inspector. Other attributes. The EC and EI should carry themselves in a professional manner, admit when they are wrong, and learn from each other.

?admit when they are wrong, and learn from each other?
Good advice !

David

 

[dcspector]

David, Back to the OP, I would just recommend the EC label That circuit as what it is for VD....as others have said, we cannot cite what will be. I have been an Inspector for a long time and that just don't cut it...future or etc. Not our job.

 

[mpd]

the inspector is wrong period, ask him for a code section and that should be the end of it

 

[LarryFine]

EI's should at least have a minimum of 10yrs. "Valid" Electrical installation experience . . .

Hear! Hear!

 

[iwire]

Bob, I have no idea what you mean.

Why would there be any ?hold up? on an inspection based on the notations that an inspector takes and includes in a permanent file ? . I don?t understand what you?re talking about.

David

David forget about what you would do.

The inspector that the opening poster was dealing with was holding up the job over this.

That is wrong.

You said 'the inspector has a good point'

I strongly disagree, what ever fears the inspector has is not the installers problem.

If you read carefully I also come down on electricians that change overcurrent device sizes without checking the circuit. (post 10)

the inspector is wrong period, ask him for a code section and that should be the end of it

That sums it all up.

 

[wireman3736]

"see in a panel"
How about tearing out the panel and replacing it. . How are the breaker sizes in the new panel determined ? . What percentage of electricians check the wire size against breaker amperages before they tear out the old panel ? . Of that small percentage, how many would assume that the old panel breaker size of 15a on a 12gauge is correct and reinstall that same combo in the new panel ?
Considered a professional or not, they?re out there doing it and inspectors are out there inspecting it.
If you're one of the few, great. . You can tune the rest of this conversation out. .


I don't consider my self one of the few great just a guy trying to do a responsible job, I always note the ocpd on a circuit wire and always replace it with the same unless the wire is not sized for the ocpd and then I will reduce it to the proper size for the conductor. If I'm already making notes to what the circuit goes to then it only takes a second longer to right down the size of the ocpd, It's all part of the job.

 

[dnem]

It's all part of the job.

You're certainly right but there's a surprising number that don't pay very much attention to quality or even safety.

 

[dnem]

David,
So what would you have the installer do when he needs a larger conductor for voltage drop reasons?
Don

As far as the _design issue_ is concerned, I tend to agree with the inspector that this is a potential problem, and that it is entirely appropriate for the inspector to _suggest_ some sort of permanent indication that there are 14ga conductors in the circuit. Simply writing '14ga in circuit' on a bit of romex sheath and hanging this on the conductor to the breaker would be enough to solve the issue. (And yes, if you did this all the time, it is likely that some inspector somewhere would ding you on having that bit of romex sheath used as a label.)

Like Jon said, a label tag of some type in the panel would be my suggestion.

Dave that is a what if situation with a capital W,........Why change over to 14 in the first place struck me as strange.Should have been 12 the entire length of the run.Personally I only mix wire size at the panel.Like a rough in for a 8 kw heat strip AHU,and when trim time comes there is a 5 kw unit fused at 30 amps and you are using a breaker that won`t accept anything over 10 wire.I can see his point but he can`t inspect for tomorrow just the install he is inspecting so with the ocpd being 15 he has to pass it.

“Why change over to 14 in the first place struck me as strange.Should have been 12 the entire length of the run.Personally I only mix wire size at the panel.”
You’ll have to ask DSamson why he did the mix and match. . I don’t know what was accomplished by mixing and then using the larger for a HR on a residential 120v. . Code compliant, yes. . But the code is just the minimum standard, right ? . Why wire to minimum if it causes an issue ?

David

 

[Dean83169]

WOW alot on this topic. I have had many different inspectors in my state (CT) and some are good, some are excellent and some paid or was handed their job by a family member or friend. In most cases I usually find out what they want ahead of time if I question anything. If I know what is legal by the NEC and I have done what is required at the minimum and he wants something else that is not a big deal, then I will ask" Is this in the NEC or is this something YOU want, because if I have done something wrong I would like to know so I do not do that again" and if its not a big deal then I do it, makes a good repore with the inspector and he now feels important. On the otherhand, if he is requesting something STUPID because his father has done it a certain way for years and thats what he wants, I state the same question to him, but only I go to the state inspector with his answer and he makes the call to tell him he is wrong. It doesnt make for a good and happy meeting but he will not abuse his AHJ with you again.

 

[dnem]

A lot of Inspectors get a bad wrap due to some "Loose cannon" or "ego tripin" type "power hungry rookie" Inspectors out there. EI's should at least have a minimum of 10yrs. "Valid" Electrical installation experience and be currently ICC Certified as an Electrical Inspector. Other attributes. The EC and EI should carry themselves in a professional manner, admit when they are wrong, and learn from each other.

I?m not sure if I think the 10 yr number should be the number or not. . What I think is more important is the amount of education that is required of the inspector. . In Ohio, we just started a required code academy just this year. . A person can?t become an inspector without going thru the 40 hr academy. . But until this year there was only a test to start and 10 hrs a year continuing ed from a thousand and one different sources. . The state needs to continue to improve the required continuing ed.

David

 

[dnem]

David forget about what you would do.

The inspector that the opening poster was dealing with was holding up the job over this.

That is wrong.

You said 'the inspector has a good point'

I strongly disagree, what ever fears the inspector has is not the installers problem.

"The inspector that the opening poster was dealing with was holding up the job over this.
That is wrong."

I agree

"what ever fears the inspector has is not the installers problem."

I agree

"You said 'the inspector has a good point'
I strongly disagree"

I guess this is the only thing we disagree about.

David

 

[LarryFine]

Okay, I'll settle this one.

Trim the #12 home-run condcutor to 6" where it enters the panel, and splice onto it a #14 wire to land on the breaker.

 

[dnem]

Okay, I'll settle this one.

Trim the #12 home-run condcutor to 6" where it enters the panel, and splice onto it a #14 wire to land on the breaker.

Obviously this thread is about a specific installation and situation that the OP described. . And there’s a number of different ways of accomplishing the same thing. . If you’re just looking for code compliant, he’s already there and no change is required.

But the general subject of mixed gauge conductors on 120v residential circuits is one that should be given some thought by all inspectors. . Holding up a project by withholding approval isn’t an option when there’s no code violation.

There’s an issue here about not knowing what we’re looking at during an inspection. . During a final inspection, a panel full of 12gauge wires on 20a breakers doesn’t raise any red flags or even get noticed at all. . After checking the 12g/20a and 14g/15a single pole circuits, I would check phasing [shared neutral 3wire phasing] and move on to the 240v which would get checked at both ends. . If there was no notation from the rough, I would never know to look for or ask about an issue.

There’ve been different options for the installer suggested on this thread and those are all good but none of them required. . The inspector can certainly tell the electrician his concerns and make suggestions but ultimately the inspector has to have a solution that doesn’t require the installers participation. . The inspector can make any notation that he chooses and “track” or “flag” something using a computer program. . A permanent flag about mixed gauge circuits with larger HRs can be attached to the buildings records by address or whatever other means is used by the building department system.

We have one inspector in our department that is known for being “heavy handed”. . His personality makes it easy for him to take liberties with the interpretation concept that is part of making some calls. . I’ve been in many meetings where his calls have been discussed [with him present]. . Talking thru the issue with references to information from continuing ed seminars has been surprising successful in resulting in more uniform calls. . An inspector who is even slightly unsure of what the correct call should be is an inspector that will have the tendency to personalize responsibility of the safety of the building occupants. . An inspector who is well versed in code application [not just words in code rules but code application] will be much more likely to place responsibility for safety where it actually should be placed, upon the NEC code panel members.

There’s no question that there are inspectors that overstep their place even when shown the right way to do their job but I think there are a vastly larger number that would benefit greatly from mandatory scenario based continuing ed. . Ohio is not requiring or offering enough and I would guess that there are many more states among the other 49 that don’t educate their inspectors properly.

David

 

[iwire]

I had no idea this was such a tough concept and caused so much worry from inspectors.

I suggest forgetting about it and moving on.

There are a million and one things that an electrician can do against code that inspector could never see.

Part of being an electrician is some sense of personal responsibility to follow the code.

If we think that inspectors can be expected to catch anything and everything we are asking to much of inspectors.

 

[infinity]

Part of being an electrician is some sense of personal responsibility to follow the code.

If we think that inspectors can be expected to catch anything and everything we are asking to much of inspectors.

I agree, and at the end of the day the inspector will still have zero liability and the EC will have all of the liability.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I agree, and at the end of the day the inspector will still have zero liability and the EC will have all of the liability.

Thats not completely true anymore.When someone gets killed or hurt a sharp lawyer will go after everyone including the inspector.Good inspectors are not easy to fine.There job is to inforce nec as written and personal preferances should never be involved.Yes they miss things but when they make up rules i have a major problem.The OP had a code compliant install.The inspector has now cost him time and money and damaged his reputation.A short talk with him should be enough but if not go to the chief.I know of 1 inspector that got demoted because of complaints,this was not just 1 or 2 but several.

 

[Bob NH]

I?m not sure if I think the 10 yr number should be the number or not. . What I think is more important is the amount of education that is required of the inspector. . In Ohio, we just started a required code academy just this year. . A person can?t become an inspector without going thru the 40 hr academy. . But until this year there was only a test to start and 10 hrs a year continuing ed from a thousand and one different sources. . The state needs to continue to improve the required continuing ed.

David

The training should include heavy emphasis on the fact that the inspector may not reject an installation without citing the applicable code. And supervisors of inspectors must make it clear that inspectors who exhibit a pattern of rejecting compliant installations will be disciplined.

It is acceptable to make a mistake and learn and not repeat the mistake. But repeated rejection of compliant installations is evidence of harassment and should not be tolerated by supervisors.

Another thing that would be very helpful would be inspection standards that clearly identify what is acceptable and what is rejectable when something is susceptible to "interpretation". Whenever an interpretation issue comes up and is resolved, it should be documented so it doesn't have to be resolved again.

 

[stew]

for my 2 cents worth. I always,always make a diagram of the panel by breaker number and what size breaker was in that breaker slot. I then number all the wires by breaker number except the obvious ones like the range. That way I never put a 12 on a 20 that mite have been connected down line to a 14.pretty simple to then land it back the way it was as far as i am concerned. takes a bit more time but I dont commit any sins this way.

 

[jeff43222]

Although the inspector does make a good point, it's not an enforceable one. As an EC I've only had one inspector ever tag me for bogus stuff, and she was eventually let go from her job, so there is some justice in the world.

As an engineer, I've discussed this issue with the more experienced folks around the office. They take the view that it's not always worth the trouble to fight an inspector, and these are people who really know the code. Sure, you could spend time and money to "win," but who wants a Pyrrhic victory?

An easy way to satisfy the inspector in this case would be to pigtail a little #14 to the #12 inside the panel and connect the #14 to the breaker. Better still, a 15A breaker would work just as well since the load is fairly small.