Conflict between NFPA 70 and NFPA 20?

[Twophase]

Wiring up a fire pump controller, which puts us in NFPA 70 Article 695 space, along with NFPA 20 (which article 695 references)

A fire pump controller can power auxiliary loads, such as a louver actuator, a beacon light, or local annunciator system. In these scenarios, we would tap off the incoming L/N and run wires through the controller's internal relays to achieve desired function.

For example, if we want the beacon light to turn on when the pump fails, we would run through the controller's pump fail contacts, etc.

NFPA 20 states (10.3.4.5.1)

A fire pump controller shall not be used as a junction box for any purpose (see section 9.7), including the following:
(1) to supply other equipment
(2) to splice incoming or outgoing wires
(3) to connect external surge suppression


9.7 is basically the same as NEC 695.6(I) junction boxes.

Based on these sections, would wiring these accessory loads (examples given - beacon light, louver actuator, local annunciator, etc) be a violation of NFPA 20? Obviously the this is subject to interpretation by the AHJ, but nobody likes getting into an argument if not needed.

 

[ramsy]

Perhaps louver actuators, beacon lights, or local annunciator systems should be wired from the fire control panel.

If fire pumps must continue when buildings are burning down, cables are melting, & shorting out, why would you jeopardize the pump controller with those other systems, much less put other systems on supply-side taps without OCP?

 

[Twophase]

Fair point, but what about louvers that would open for ventilation purposes? Those may actually facilitate operation of the fire pump. For example, a louver that opens when the motor or engine is running.

 

[david luchini]

Based on these sections, would wiring these accessory loads (examples given - beacon light, louver actuator, local annunciator, etc) be a violation of NFPA 20? Obviously the this is subject to interpretation by the AHJ, but nobody likes getting into an argument if not needed.

I wouldn't consider wiring of the accessories as a violation of NFPA 20. I think they would fall under 10.4.7, 10.4.8 and possibly 10.5.2.6.

 

[gadfly56]

You can use the relay outputs from the fire pump controller to operate other loads, you just can't tap the power from the controller. You would probably have to use the on-board relays as pilot relays for contactors and what-not. You bring the 24VDC pilot power into the controller box and route it through the relay. That way it's not being used as a junction box, at least in my opinion.

 

[ramsy]

Fair point, but what about louvers that would open for ventilation purposes? Those may actually facilitate operation of the fire pump. For example, a louver that opens when the motor or engine is running.

If fire-pump controller is listed assembly with integrated systems for operation, there should be specific instructions how its installed.

Without such instructions, you could have a multi-purpose controller also suitable for fire pumps, in limited circumstances. Perhaps you should check the controller listing more carefully.

 

[gadfly56]

If fire-pump controller is listed assembly with integrated systems for operation, there should be specific instructions how its installed.

Without such instructions, you could have a multi-purpose controller also suitable for fire pumps, in limited circumstances. Perhaps you should check the controller listing more carefully.

I have never run across a fire pump controller that was listed for any other service. The requirements are so specific (and expensive!) that you would never try to create a general purpose pump controller that was cross-listed for fire pump service.

 

[ramsy]

Yes, I am beginning to see.

Amazon has a few for sale today. $3,500, and $3,300 respectively.

 

[gadfly56]

Yes, I am beginning to see.

Amazon has a few for sale today. $3,500, and $3,300 respectively.

Used or resell? I can't see a price when I follow your links. I recall your basic ASCO fire pump controller runs about $15,000. We don't even list them as an inventory item.

 

[ramsy]

Click button on the right that says "All buying options"

Amazon hides these 2 items behind a tricky search criteria. "fire pump" must be in quotes, while controller is not.

The search brings up a majority of small wall-mount consoles; also described as fire pump controllers, perhaps from other countries, or for much smaller pumps.

 

[gadfly56]

Click button on the right that says "All buying options"

Amazon hides these 2 items behind a tricky search criteria. "fire pump" must be in quotes, while controller is not.

The search brings up a majority of small wall-mount consoles; also described as fire pump controllers, perhaps from other countries, or for much smaller pumps.

OK, these are used. We'd never sell a used fire pump controller. The potential liability is just too great, and we could never offer a warranty on them.

 

[ramsy]

Amazon may not be first to sell used equipment like this from burned down, or upgraded buildings. eBay came before Amazon, and salvage brokers long before the internet.

We do know from this forum, that poorly qualified persons attempt to install these systems.

Can fire systems like this pass building commissioning, and inspections without performance checks after installation?

 

[gadfly56]

Amazon may not be first to sell used equipment like this from burned down, or upgraded buildings. eBay came before Amazon, and salvage brokers long before the internet.

We do know from this forum, that poorly qualified persons attempt to install these systems.

Can fire systems like this pass building commissioning, and inspections without performance checks after installation?

Performance testing focuses on the fire pump itself. Doe it turn on at the right pressure drop? What is the actual output at 100% and 150%? Does the controller report the proper signals? What they won't test is the overload response of the controller, or the other automatic safety features that may be present Will it work? Probably, but you won't get any reputable fire protection contractor to install it. If it's installed by someone not in the business, like an EC and plumber, they may leave out important bits through ignorance.

 

[ramsy]

Since UL recently defined "reconditioned" below, if used equipment was moved from another facility; a certified-reconditioned label or NRTL field evaluation can be enforced, either of which may level the cost closer to new equipment.

Reconditioned equipment is electromechanical systems, ..that are restored to operating conditions. This process differs from normal servicing of equipment that remains within a facility, or replacement of listed equipment on a one-to-one basis.

Reconditioned electrical equipment, a 2020 NEC® Guide

The NEC has recently weighed in on the use of rebuilt and reconditioned equipment.

www.ul.com