- Location
- Massachusetts
Dennis Alwon said:
If they are supplied by on site generators there is no service, only feeders and the very similar rules of 225 apply.
Per the NEC definitions 'services' can only be supplied by a utility. :smile:
containerized living units
- Thread starter makalroy
- Start date
- Status
If they are supplied by on site generators there is no service, only feeders and the very similar rules of 225 apply.
Per the NEC definitions 'services' can only be supplied by a utility. :smile:
cschmid
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern cold country
my son just got back from Iraq and the containers set right on the ground..they do the best they can with what they have to work with..My hats to the young man for asking for some knowledge..
cschmid
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern cold country
iwire said:
now who defines a utility...IMHO a utility is the source the power used by the people who are qualified by the NEC connect to..so whether the source is a generator set or a set of transmission lines feed by a generator set the power comes from some sort of generation system..
normally the NEC compliance starts at the MDP..So how do you wire a panel located in a building used totally for showering...where do you locate the panel..
- Location
- Massachusetts
cschmid said:
Typically the states 'utility commission'
Not to the NEC, take the time to look at "Service" in Article 100.
In this case NEC compliance starts at the generator instead of the invisible 'service point' and instead of following the rules in 230 we follow the rules in 225.
cschmid
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern cold country
You always make me go read....good man..
Often, but not always, the source of supply of electricity is the serving electric utility. The point of connection from a premises wiring system to a serving electric utility system is, by definition, referred to as the service point.
FPN to (4) and (5): Examples of utilities may include those entities that are typically designated or recognized by governmental law or regulation by public service/utility commissions and that install, operate, and maintain electric supply (such as generation, transmission, or distribution systems) or communication systems (such as telephone, CATV, Internet, satellite, or data services). Utilities may be subject to compliance with codes and standards covering their regulated activities as adopted under governmental law or regulation. Additional information can be found through consultation with the appropriate governmental bodies, such as state regulatory commissions, the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, and the Federal Communications Commission.
Ok Now we have an idea of what qualifies a utility provider..so now we must look at 225..
ok I agree with both you need to use 445, 225, 250, and all related articles for gensets and outside wiring..
so still the question remains how would you wire a container that is totally used for showering..where would you locate the panel..I would think either outside or in the dressing area..and it would have to be feed from a GFCI for safety..Nope I did not look up codes lets hear your design ideas..
Often, but not always, the source of supply of electricity is the serving electric utility. The point of connection from a premises wiring system to a serving electric utility system is, by definition, referred to as the service point.
FPN to (4) and (5): Examples of utilities may include those entities that are typically designated or recognized by governmental law or regulation by public service/utility commissions and that install, operate, and maintain electric supply (such as generation, transmission, or distribution systems) or communication systems (such as telephone, CATV, Internet, satellite, or data services). Utilities may be subject to compliance with codes and standards covering their regulated activities as adopted under governmental law or regulation. Additional information can be found through consultation with the appropriate governmental bodies, such as state regulatory commissions, the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, and the Federal Communications Commission.
Ok Now we have an idea of what qualifies a utility provider..so now we must look at 225..
ok I agree with both you need to use 445, 225, 250, and all related articles for gensets and outside wiring..
so still the question remains how would you wire a container that is totally used for showering..where would you locate the panel..I would think either outside or in the dressing area..and it would have to be feed from a GFCI for safety..Nope I did not look up codes lets hear your design ideas..
DanZ
Senior Member
I think this will come down to a design / layout issue. I think your big issue with "in a bathroom" at this point will be where in the bathroom. If it's some place where it could get wet, or condensation could build up, it might be best to move the panel. A few examples would be a panel located in a shower stall or actual shower area, versus something in a corner.makalroy said:
I think grounding it well and GFCI is a very good idea. You might want to think about a bath fan of some type of they don't have one, something that would remove moist air.
Good luck and God bless.
Stay frosty.
Watch your six.
makalroy,
You have to bond at the source ( gen.) and then keep neutral and EG bus
seperate thereafter, any other means of trying to acomplish this will likley
result in parallel neutral current paths on all bonded metal parts. That would
be bad in any situation, but, in this situation even more so. Why ?, because
these conductors and all the bonded metal parts serve the 'shower room', you
have to make sure you got it right !!! Makalroy, it's your duty to make sure
no more of our men get killed over there, simply because they were in the shower.
OK, if that was to harsh it ment to drive a point home, and not to give You
a hard time. All I can say is install the system to NEC, if it's so out of control
swaping gens. that you fear a real and present danger, then report it in the
proper maner. Good Luck, Makalroy, keep it safe.
You have to bond at the source ( gen.) and then keep neutral and EG bus
seperate thereafter, any other means of trying to acomplish this will likley
result in parallel neutral current paths on all bonded metal parts. That would
be bad in any situation, but, in this situation even more so. Why ?, because
these conductors and all the bonded metal parts serve the 'shower room', you
have to make sure you got it right !!! Makalroy, it's your duty to make sure
no more of our men get killed over there, simply because they were in the shower.
OK, if that was to harsh it ment to drive a point home, and not to give You
a hard time. All I can say is install the system to NEC, if it's so out of control
swaping gens. that you fear a real and present danger, then report it in the
proper maner. Good Luck, Makalroy, keep it safe.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
It sounds like makalroy is wondering which is the lesser of the 2 evils. Bond the generator and the MDP or just bond the generator and hope that all the other generators hare bonded.
The question is whether a parallel neutral is worse than not having a generator bonded. I don't have the answer. I would do it right and hope others are educated on the subject. I know I'm not :grin:
The question is whether a parallel neutral is worse than not having a generator bonded. I don't have the answer. I would do it right and hope others are educated on the subject. I know I'm not :grin:
cschmid
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern cold country
makalroy said:
I agree it is possible that a hook up could go bad..Yet I feel the chances of having a parallel grounded conductors is probably a worse hazard..so I would stay with the bonding at the OCP at the gen-set..
There nothing in between the MDP and OCP except cable and the only chance of a parallel grounded conductor is if the cable becomes damaged from all the work being done in the area.
I can say what the odds are in that..
DanZ
Senior Member
Is there a way you could mount a "permanent" wiring schematic to the wires? Maybe a laminated card and a wire tie, that sort of thing.
directech111
New member
- Location
- Central Virginia
I came here to see what I could learn about my Son's situation (My Son is currently in Iraq.), and found this thread. My Son is having similar problems, but with failures at the panel. So this is really a general design question for generated power in Iraq.
Not sure if were talking about the same place as "makalroy" or not. Let me describe the basic configuration (and what little I know about it) to everyone.
- Troops (mostly Marines) live in steel cargo containers. Picture these containers with bunks and window A/C units side-by-side lined up inside a warehouse somewhere.
- Generators are swapped out all the time, and by different entities/contractors.
- Power is supplied 100% by generators (although some locations are dual local utility/generator).
- Gounding is haphazard at best (if at all).
- Many different people are doing hands-on work there (on the same project).
The real issue now is repeated failure of the center lug in the panel. You can see the damaged lug in this shot from the first failure (below):
Here is a pic of the second panel. Notice the hole burned near where the lug attaches (I added the descriptions based on what my Son described)(below):
Here is my question, what could be causing this repeated failure? Please excuse me for being so vague, I am very concerned about security issues.
Frank
Not sure if were talking about the same place as "makalroy" or not. Let me describe the basic configuration (and what little I know about it) to everyone.
- Troops (mostly Marines) live in steel cargo containers. Picture these containers with bunks and window A/C units side-by-side lined up inside a warehouse somewhere.
- Generators are swapped out all the time, and by different entities/contractors.
- Power is supplied 100% by generators (although some locations are dual local utility/generator).
- Gounding is haphazard at best (if at all).
- Many different people are doing hands-on work there (on the same project).
The real issue now is repeated failure of the center lug in the panel. You can see the damaged lug in this shot from the first failure (below):
Here is a pic of the second panel. Notice the hole burned near where the lug attaches (I added the descriptions based on what my Son described)(below):
Here is my question, what could be causing this repeated failure? Please excuse me for being so vague, I am very concerned about security issues.
Frank
- Status