contractors, manufactures

[brian john]

Over the years the issue of manufactures influence has been brought up several times.
I have recently been dealing with another issue with the manufactures. Their factory service, these are unlicensed electricians performing electric work. Now if it is actually a warranty issue it is one thing, but recently they have gotten involved in installations and modifications.

For 5 years I have been working with a large customer with a doubled ended switchboard; that is main tie main manually operated. The customer wanted to modify the system to automatic operation. We had quoted this several times and basically had the job (so we were told). Last week I was told that the switchboards manufacture would be doing the job, as they someone informed my customer that the manufacture is the only one qualified to complete this project. They are replacing the gear completely, not modifications and not through a contractor.

Now this is not the first time we have run into this issue, we are competing with manufactures for maintenance all the time, and the big sales thing is they are the only ones qualified to work on their gear.

Then there is the software issue, where manufactures have proprietary software, that to have in a non manufacture hands violates copy right laws (this is a UPS and generator issue more than switchgear, but that will change).

As I said I do not have an issue with manufactures addressing warranty issues, but when they get involved in modifications and installations they should be licensed. I checked with the local jurisdiction and these manufactures do not even have business licenses in the area they are working, their answer is they are manufactures.

On a maintenance job for the county where my office is I complained that the company (manufacture) that was awarded the job did not have proper licensing and at the least the county WHERE I PAY TAXES should not reward jobs to non-licensed vendors. The vendor went to a local contractor and operated as a sub for this job, so I still lost out.

Should I/we have to compete against the very people we purchase from?

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

todays world is so competitive...I have seen how the manufacturers are evolving to increase their bottom line. Maybe the manufacturer has hired a licensed individual to be able to increase their product offering to installation as well. If this is so, there will be big issues that contractors will be dealing with in the near future.

Please keep us informed of how this transpires.

 

[davidr43229]

I have seen how the manufacturers are evolving to increase their bottom line. Maybe the manufacturer has hired a licensed individual to be able to increase their product offering to installation as well. If this is so, there will be big issues that contractors will be dealing with in the near future.

I know of 3 Manufacturers that now have a "Services" Group. These Service Groups or "Sub-Contractors" representing the Manufacturer perform installations & do Arc Flash surveys. They have been doing this for the last 2-3 years. The Services Group is a seperate "Cost-center", marked with a sales goal.

I have seen how the manufacturers are evolving to increase their bottom line. Maybe the manufacturer has hired a licensed individual to be able to increase their product offering to installation as well. If this is so, there will be big issues that contractors will be dealing with in the near future.

This is a reality. Manufacturers and chain hardware stores & even burger joints have their own sub-contractors that follow the installations. I know this is not what you are directly speaking of, but time was....the Electrical s was done on a bid basis by local electrical contractors also.

Should I/we have to compete against the very people we purchase from

Well said....

 

[ghostbuster]

Then there is the software issue, where manufactures have proprietary software, that to have in a non manufacture hands violates copy right laws (this is a UPS and generator issue more than switchgear, but that will change).

?

I agree 100% and constantly running into this problem. Just to add a note ,some of the UPS vendors ship their units deliberately with software trojan horse programs to eliminate 3rd party commissioning and servicing. If the switchgear boys could incorporate computer programs ,I am sure they would do the same thing .It is up to the customer/consultant to request open source program capability at the time of purchase.

 

[iwire]

Then there is the software issue, where manufactures have proprietary software, that to have in a non manufacture hands violates copy right laws (this is a UPS and generator issue more than switchgear, but that will change).

For the past 6 or 7 weeks I have been assigned to a factory, I was amazed to find out that many of the complicated machines do not come with full wiring diagrams.....they are propitiatory.

Then of course most of this equipment is PLC controlled and you will not get any answers about software issues.

It would be good if the purchasers started putting their foot down and say I am not buying this equipment without more documentation for troubleshooting.

 

[FNCnca]

It would be good if the purchasers started putting their foot down and say I am not buying this equipment without more documentation for troubleshooting.

It is pretty easy to do just that. We take it a step futher however. We do all our own control. We ask the vendor to tell us how the machine is expected to work and to install our I/O system. We will hook it up to our system and do all the software. If they refuse, then we will find another vendor. No manufacturer has ever refused, most do fight it some. Bottom line is they want our money.

 

[mdshunk]

When I was rolling through a town the other day that requires their own license, I noticed a "Square D Service" truck hauling in injection test equipment into a large building. I'm sure not a soul on that truck had that town's license.

Another gripe of mine is the guys who install traffic signals, and the associated service equipment, without a license in the jurisdictions where they work. I also dislike excavation contractors who install site utility conduits and street lighting without the proper licensing.

 

[jim dungar]

Many (most?) qualified testing/service companies either act as sub-contractors to a local contractor or hire local electricians to do any install and premises work.

 

[mdshunk]

Many (most?) qualified testing/service companies either act as sub-contractors to a local contractor ...

Which doesn't necessarily always exclude them from the licensing requirements, where they exist. In the jurisdiction I just wrote about, you need to be an employee of, and directly supervised by, the license holder if you don't have one yourself.

 

[jim dungar]

In the jurisdiction I just wrote about, you need to be an employee of, and directly supervised by, the license holder if you don't have one yourself.

So simply being a sub-contractor to or hiring a license holder is not legit.

Is a license required if all the company is doing is the testing of breakers un-installed by a license holder?

Do you require a license by all testing and certification companies for equipment like ground fault schemes, gensets, fire pump controllers, hospital isolation systems and automatic transfer switches? I would guess very few license holders have employees certified by manufacturers for start up and warranty service of these products.

 

[petersonra]

Are you suggesting the manufacturer's personnnel are unqualified to service their equipment? Or you you just griping that they can do it better and cheaper than you can because of their specialized knowledge of the equipment and so want some governmental entity to prevent them from doing so?

 

[brian john]

I am saying their people are qualified to do warranty work. Some of these guys have no electrical back ground and are factory trained to service particular equipment. We have laws in our area that say to perform modifications and installations you must be expierenced and licensed and I feel they should play by the same rules we have to play by.

Cost wise they are 135.00-150.00 an hour straight time, 4 hour minimum plus travel time. They get the work in some instances by telling the end user that they are the only ones that can legally perform the work.

 

[mdshunk]

Or you you just griping that they can do it better and cheaper than you can because of their specialized knowledge of the equipment and so want some governmental entity to prevent them from doing so?

All I want is an unfair advantage. And in most cases, the existing laws to be followed.

 

[augie47]

manufacturers as contractors

manufacturers as contractors

In the areas I've worked..they could test or replace (exact replacement) all they wanted.......if they installed or altered, someone with an appropriate (local) license needed to be on site.
In our areas there have been instances where there machinery has been pre-wired, then broken down for shipment, and the machine manufacturer reasembles & re-connect, but I'm sure other jurisdictions handle it differently.

 

[petersonra]

They get the work in some instances by telling the end user that they are the only ones that can legally perform the work.

I have a very hard time believing they would blatantly lie like that, or that the end user is stupid enough to believe it.

 

[brian john]

Peter:

Salesmen, selling a product always tell the truth. Maybe they believe what they are saying, maybe the feel it gives them an edge, bending the truth. And the people purchasing the product are untrained or lacking knowldge.

 

[james wuebker]

Well for many of years I've been an electrician. I now have my Master licenses. I have took a job as a Maintenance Manager at a large factory. We have plastic molding machines and if I have a tech (Machine manufactory Tech)that comes in to work on it they only can work on the machine and nothing outside it's scope. I have to take care of the power feeding the machine. It was said earlier in this thread that a lot of factories hire a license electrician for the plant and that is what we have. That would be me. I do a lot of outside contracting work and get at least 3 different quotes most of the time. What I have found is some bids are very fair apart and that's where I come in. I do understand what the quotes are and some are just not fair to the game. As for fixing a machine I have techs that are very good and do understand them which most machines are PLC driven (The Brains). Again anything major we have to go to the city for a permit which they have to inspect. I have been to other factories where the maintenance there is poor and would have to agree that a license person should make the repair. I could write and write but need to stop here.

Jim

 

[jim dungar]

.... the existing laws to be followed.

Mark,

How do you know the existing laws were not being followed? Many times breaker injection testing is performed on breakers un-installed and re-installed by persons other than the testing technician. I have never heard of manufacturers technicians regularly installing premises wiring systems instead of using local electricians. Even on turn-key projects their cost basis and skill set are normally prohibitive.

I am not trying to be difficult, I like to learn about requirments in other areas. Does your jurisdiction really prevent local license holders from using non-locally licensed specialty sub-contractors?

 

[mdshunk]

Mark,

How do you know the existing laws were not being followed?

Because its a small town. It's an easy thing to check. :wink:

Does your jurisdiction really prevent local license holders from using non-locally licensed specialty sub-contractors?

No, not that I'm aware of, but the problem is that the specialty subs are doing the work directly. Perhaps they are being contacted by facility engineers directly and project GC's, I don't know. In any event, they're circumventing the local licensing process right under our noses.

I have never heard of manufacturers technicians regularly installing premises wiring systems instead of using local electricians.

I watched half a dozen traffic signals and their associated service equipment get installed by non-licensed (although, surely qualified) personnell. It happens.

 

[Bob NH]

Because its a small town. It's an easy thing to check. :wink:

. . . .

I watched half a dozen traffic signals and their associated service equipment get installed by non-licensed (although, surely qualified) personnell. It happens.

If a town tried to enforce their local licensing laws by compelling a manufacturer to hire people unfamiliar with the product instead of allowing qualified manufacturer's personnel to install computer controlled traffic lights, I believe they would run into issues of restraining interstate commerce under the commerce clause of the US constitution.

You could make a case for running conduit underground to the pole, but there would probably be a pretty steep learning curve for most electricians to jump in and install and program a traffic light system.

Local licensing of trades is nothing more than featherbedding to protect the locals and collect more money. Most states allow licensed professional engineers from other states to work up to 30 days in their states.