Converted Garage

[wbalsam1]

I believe it can be successfully argued that a receptacle is a component of a system. It is a component of an electrical system. Therefore, a receptacle meets the definition of "equipment" as per the Mechanical Code.
A building official has a duty and obligation to enforce the provisions of MC 304.3 with reference to receptacle height being 18" or more AFF.

In the NEC a receptacle is defined as a device....and "equipment" is defined as "A general term including material, fittings, devices..."
It should be agreed that a receptacle is equipment. It is legally defined as such, and no amount of roaring and screaming will make it go away...:grin:
(this is paraphrasing an attorney friend of mine)

So the next item to consider is the classification of the occupancy in question. "Garage" has a definition as "A building or a portion of a building in which one or more self-propelled vehicles...." in the NEC,... and garages are regulated by the Residential Code as accessory buildings or structures.

A "use" of a building is the purpose for which it is occupied.
"Habitable space" is space used for eating, sleeping, cooking, etc. Storage space used for autos is not habitable space. If the garage doors are left intact, how would there be the requisite insulation, wall covering, wiring, and other components and systems? It's got to be a garage, and therefore the rules of the Mechanical Code apply. Get those receptacles up to 18" AFF or out come the red tags. :smile:

 

[rcarroll]

The mech. code requires that the "ignition source" of equipment be at least 18" above the floor in a garage. My question, is a recep. an ignition source?

 

[wbalsam1]

The mech. code requires that the "ignition source" of equipment be at least 18" above the floor in a garage. My question, is a recep. an ignition source?

It doesn't quite say that. It says "Equipment", then it says "and" then it says "appliances having an ignition source...." the ignition source of an appliance is treated separately from "equipment". Wouldn't the load spark of something being plugged in be an ignition source if fuel vapors were present in the atmosphere below 18"? :smile: (I'm playing devil's advocate, by the way.)

 

[rcarroll]

1. I don't see that a recep is included in the definition of equipment in the '06 IMC. Possibly in the '06 IRC.
2. Since we're talking about a garage convert in a dwelling, look at M1307.3 in the '06 IRC. Elevation of ignition source. Appliances having an ignition source shall be elevated such that the source of ignition is not less than 18".....

 

[wbalsam1]

1. I don't see that a recep is included in the definition of equipment in the '06 IMC.

....."other components of systems other than appliances...." (A branch circuit is considered an electrical system, just like adding a receptacle (component) to an existing circuit (system) is considered extending the electrical system)

Possibly in the '06 IRC.

See 201.4 in the IRC with regard to terms not defined. Also see 201.3 which refers to the Building Code, which in Chapter 27 refers to the NEC which has a definition of "receptacle."

2. Since we're talking about a garage convert in a dwelling, look at M1307.3 in the '06 IRC. Elevation of ignition source. Appliances having an ignition source shall be elevated such that the source of ignition is not less than 18".....

This is the same text that is in the Mechanical Code at 304.3. It's just that the IRC is intended to be a stand-alone, go-to code for one-family dwellings, so lots of provisions occuring in other books within the International Family of Codes are reprinted in the IRC.:smile:

 

[rcarroll]

.


This is the same text that is in the Mechanical Code at 304.3. It's just that the IRC is intended to be a stand-alone, go-to code for one-family dwellings, so lots of provisions occuring in other books within the International Family of Codes are reprinted in the IRC.:smile:

Maybe I'm splittin' hairs here, but, it's not the same text. the 2 words you used to correct me on your post above are not in the IRC text. The words "equipment" & "and". So, just by reading the IRC, there is nothing said about equipment. Only appliances having an ignition source. If I'm way off base, just tell me to shut up & move on. :grin:

 

[wbalsam1]

Maybe I'm splittin' hairs here, but, it's not the same text. the 2 words you used to correct me on your post above are not in the IRC text. The words "equipment" & "and". So, just by reading the IRC, there is nothing said about equipment. Only appliances having an ignition source. If I'm way off base, just tell me to shut up & move on. :grin:

Great discovery! :smile: However to continue my splitting hairs, the Scope of Chapter 13 in the IRC says "....equipment and systems not addressed by this code shall comply with the applicable provisions of the Mechanical Code....."
What a circuitous route to try to defend my position, heh? :grin:

 

[rcarroll]

I hope you are at least breaking out in a sweat having to flip thru so many pages to win this debate :grin:. I posted the question on the icc site (not that I doubt your integrity), but to see if they have anyone of the caliber required by this site :smile: . And maybe support my position :wink:.

 

[wbalsam1]

I hope you are at least breaking out in a sweat having to flip thru so many pages to win this debate :grin:. I posted the question on the icc site (not that I doubt your integrity), but to see if they have anyone of the caliber required by this site :smile: . And maybe support my position :wink:.

I am a wash of sweat and my hands are all paper cuts. And the worst part is, I think you're going to win in the "common sense" category. :grin:

 

[frizbeedog]

I believe it can be successfully argued that a receptacle is a component of a system. It is a component of an electrical system. Therefore, a receptacle meets the definition of "equipment" as per the Mechanical Code.
A building official has a duty and obligation to enforce the provisions of MC 304.3 with reference to receptacle height being 18" or more AFF.

In the NEC a receptacle is defined as a device....and "equipment" is defined as "A general term including material, fittings, devices..."
It should be agreed that a receptacle is equipment. It is legally defined as such, and no amount of roaring and screaming will make it go away...:grin:
(this is paraphrasing an attorney friend of mine)

So the next item to consider is the classification of the occupancy in question. "Garage" has a definition as "A building or a portion of a building in which one or more self-propelled vehicles...." in the NEC,... and garages are regulated by the Residential Code as accessory buildings or structures.

A "use" of a building is the purpose for which it is occupied.
"Habitable space" is space used for eating, sleeping, cooking, etc. Storage space used for autos is not habitable space. If the garage doors are left intact, how would there be the requisite insulation, wall covering, wiring, and other components and systems? It's got to be a garage, and therefore the rules of the Mechanical Code apply. Get those receptacles up to 18" AFF or out come the red tags. :smile:

....and then things got interesting, with all the posturing for a showdown and with guns blazing. wbalsam1 and rcarroll faced off. The books flew from the shelves into the hands of gods. Lightning bolts, great claps of thunder, and a deluge of wit and humor and spirited debate. And with all those nast, icky horrible paper cuts and such. I read oh mighty thread untill my head nearly bleed. I placed my hands to my ears to try to stop that dreaded ringing. My nose ran, my eyes watered and my stomach began to churn. frizbedog tossed his cookies for they were indeed tainted. He realized something profound, almost an enlightenment, shall we say. He brushed himself off and continued on his journey and determined never, ever, to try to turn a garage into a habitable room.:grin:

And as for me saying that your couldn't make a case for a receptacle, a.k.a "device" and "device" a.k.a. "equipment", as actually being equipment. well, you made interesting cases. I shall now look upon the receptacle with a new sense of awe, and wonder. but all kidding aside, is this a valid request for a correction? This is really about comming to an understanding of the intended use of this space. How many of you would think it pretty cool if you could take your garage and finish it out, put in a pool table, HDTV, fridge, couches, whatever you like. And come summertime roll up the doors and put the barbacue outside, bring over the dogs and the guitars or whatever you like and turn this into something like a beer garden like I used to see in Texas?

So....Now what?

Say you were going to frame, insulate and cover the garage door's. Assume they are not roll up type, but swing up.

I can't come up with a way to put receptacles in the floor line of this door. Does the classification of this space as being habitable require that the doors be permanantly fixed so as not to be opened? Keep in mind this scenario, at this point, is all hypothetical. The issue has been resolved, but for the thrill of the next debate that verdict shall remain in a sealed envelope.

Ready.........Set............Go!:smile:

P.S. frizbeedog is getting restless, too much rain, too much cold. Oregon

 

[lpelectric]

....and then things got interesting, with all the posturing for a showdown and with guns blazing. wbalsam1 and rcarroll faced off. The books flew from the shelves into the hands of gods. Lightning bolts, great claps of thunder, and a deluge of wit and humor and spirited debate. And with all those nast, icky horrible paper cuts and such. I read oh mighty thread untill my head nearly bleed. I placed my hands to my ears to try to stop that dreaded ringing. My nose ran, my eyes watered and my stomach began to churn.

Sounds a little like my first audit....:grin:

.............. I shall now look upon the receptacle with a new sense of awe, and wonder. . ....

Me, too.

 

[rcarroll]

Are you making fun of wbalsam1 & me? :grin: For the record, I don't see a violation.

 

[frizbeedog]

Are you making fun of wbalsam1 & me? :grin:

Of course I am:smile: And don't take it personnally. I enjoyed your debate and I learned a lot. Thanks.

 

[frizbeedog]

....and then things got interesting, with all the posturing for a showdown and with guns blazing. wbalsam1 and rcarroll faced off. The books flew from the shelves into the hands of gods. Lightning bolts, great claps of thunder, and a deluge of wit and humor and spirited debate. And with all those nast, icky horrible paper cuts and such. I read oh mighty thread untill my head nearly bleed. I placed my hands to my ears to try to stop that dreaded ringing. My nose ran, my eyes watered and my stomach began to churn. frizbedog tossed his cookies for they were indeed tainted. He realized something profound, almost an enlightenment, shall we say. He brushed himself off and continued on his journey and determined never, ever, to try to turn a garage into a habitable room.:grin:

And as for me saying that your couldn't make a case for a receptacle, a.k.a "device" and "device" a.k.a. "equipment", as actually being equipment. well, you made interesting cases. I shall now look upon the receptacle with a new sense of awe, and wonder. but all kidding aside, is this a valid request for a correction? This is really about comming to an understanding of the intended use of this space. How many of you would think it pretty cool if you could take your garage and finish it out, put in a pool table, HDTV, fridge, couches, whatever you like. And come summertime roll up the doors and put the barbacue outside, bring over the dogs and the guitars or whatever you like and turn this into something like a beer garden like I used to see in Texas?

So....Now what?

Say you were going to frame, insulate and cover the garage door's. Assume they are not roll up type, but swing up.

I can't come up with a way to put receptacles in the floor line of this door. Does the classification of this space as being habitable require that the doors be permanantly fixed so as not to be opened? Keep in mind this scenario, at this point, is all hypothetical. The issue has been resolved, but for the thrill of the next debate that verdict shall remain in a sealed envelope.

Ready.........Set............Go!:smile:

P.S. frizbeedog is getting restless, too much rain, too much cold. Oregon

And then a hush fell across the land...You could hear a pin drop.

 

[wbalsam1]

And then a hush fell across the land...You could hear a pin drop.

The pin fell loudly on the concrete floor in the habitable garage. It was the same pin that was used to fool the new tamper-resistant receptacles that were mounted 12" AFF.
Stay tuned for Round 2. :grin:

 

[frizbeedog]

The pin fell loudly on the concrete floor in the habitable garage. It was the same pin that was used to fool the new tamper-resistant receptacles that were mounted 12" AFF.
Stay tuned for Round 2. :grin:

Glad you're having fun. :grin:

Ground control, this is frizbeedog standing by for further instuctions, over.

frizbeedog this is ground control, stay on glide path and await transmission of new vectors, over.

Frizbeedog standing by.

 

[rcarroll]

OK, 1 more time for me & I'm done with this. :smile: There is a definition for ignition source in the IMC & IRC." A flame, spark or hot surface capable of igniting flammable vapors or fumes. Such sources include appliance burners, burner ignitors. & electrical switching devices. So, I say that a receptical outlet is not a source of ignition." This debate has been excorcized! :grin:
BTW, all who answered my question in the ICC forum agree with me as well. Including an esteemed member who goes by B. Holland. :grin: See ya.
Ron

 

[Kontrols]

I agree with the inspector but the answer is really within building code and not NEC, as you described the situation it sounds like the room is still a garage and not a habitable space.

It is kind of like putting underwear on your head and calling it a hat... no it is underwear.