Converting Dining Room to Bedroom

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JFletcher

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Williamsburg, VA
I have an upcoming job where the HO is converting an existing dining room to a bedroom. I have a few questions re: the electrical on this remodel.

#1: I know that it will require AFCI for all outlets. Since the panel is an FPE, can I use an AFCI as first receptacle then wire everything (lights and SA too ) from that point, or will I have to bid in a panel change? The existing receptacles will be abandoned and a new 20A circuit run installed for the room, and dedicated circuits for window AC and baseboard heaters.
#2: Re: #1, I looked but cannot find where code would require lights and receptacles on separate circuits (2012 IRC, based mostly on 2011 NEC).
#3: Does the closet require a light?
#4: I've found baseboard heaters with wireless thermostats; any caveat or tips with those?

eta: the existing switch for the overhead light/fan is on a switch loop, no neutral. Can this stay or does new wiring have to be pulled in? and all of the existing wire is 2 wire cloth NM.
 
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My first question would be does the AHJ require you to bring this up to current code since it's not a large remodel (or is it?)

1)406.4(d)(4) Says any replacements have to be protected by AFCI receptacle or protected by an AFCI receptacle. Also tamper resistant.

2) Lights and receptacles can be on the same circuit

3)Closet doesn't require a light

4)I live in FL

I would definitely try to sell new NM cable to replace the cloth type. Some insurance companies require this.

404.2(C) has the requirements for grounded conductors in switchboxes. Again this depends upon the year you're going off of. I would ask the AHJ if they recognize this update yet. If the lighting outlet is a receptacle you won't have to...
 
If the foot print or elevation of the house is not being changed I don't see how they can make you install AFCI's but then again, I'm not in VA so I don't know what the local codes are. Also, I'm not sure you'll find an AFCI for an FPE panel. If you end up being required to use an AFCI receptacle I believe you'll have to run armored cable to the AFCI device using a metal JB and then you can use NMC thereafter. I think it's in 250.118.
 
goldstar said:
If the foot print or elevation of the house is not being changed I don't see how they can make you install AFCI's but then again, I'm not in VA so I don't know what the local codes are. Also, I'm not sure you'll find an AFCI for an FPE panel. If you end up being required to use an AFCI receptacle I believe you'll have to run armored cable to the AFCI device using a metal JB and then you can use NMC thereafter. I think it's in 250.118.
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250.118 types of EGC??
 
JFletcher said:
eta: the existing switch for the overhead light/fan is on a switch loop, no neutral. Can this stay or does new wiring have to be pulled in? and all of the existing wire is 2 wire cloth NM.
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I would try to pull all new wire for this job because of the arc fault requirement. I can pull new wire faster than I can trouble-shoot problems with the old wiring.

Bedroom? Have you thought of the smoke/Carbon Monoxide detectors. I would check because here this remodel may trigger a requirement for smoke detectors in all required locations, you know , up to present code. If you have a lot of other bedroom this can be a lot of wiring.
 
If you are in fact forced to put an AFCI in, then you can just place a metal j-box right next to the panel with an AFCI receptacle and reroute the new bedroom wiring from the panel to the j-box. From the j-box to the panel would have to be armored cable/EMT/an offset, but it will be very short.
 
JFletcher said:
I have an upcoming job where the HO is converting an existing dining room to a bedroom. I have a few questions re: the electrical on this remodel.

#1: I know that it will require AFCI for all outlets. Since the panel is an FPE, can I use an AFCI as first receptacle then wire everything (lights and SA too ) from that point, or will I have to bid in a panel change? The existing receptacles will be abandoned and a new 20A circuit run installed for the room, and dedicated circuits for window AC and baseboard heaters.
#2: Re: #1, I looked but cannot find where code would require lights and receptacles on separate circuits (2012 IRC, based mostly on 2011 NEC).
#3: Does the closet require a light?
#4: I've found baseboard heaters with wireless thermostats; any caveat or tips with those?

eta: the existing switch for the overhead light/fan is on a switch loop, no neutral. Can this stay or does new wiring have to be pulled in? and all of the existing wire is 2 wire cloth NM.
Click to expand...


I would bid a Panel Replacement.
 
Caveat Emptor?: I am unaware of your local or State amendments to the NEC.

JFletcher said:
I have an upcoming job where the HO is converting an existing dining room to a bedroom. I have a few questions re: the electrical on this remodel.

#1: I know that it will require AFCI for all outlets. Since the panel is an FPE, can I use an AFCI as first receptacle then wire everything (lights and SA too ) from that point, or will I have to bid in a panel change? The existing receptacles will be abandoned and a new 20A circuit run installed for the room, and dedicated circuits for window AC and baseboard heaters.
JFletcher said:
2 new interior walls are being added, nothing is being gutted/demo'd. House was built in early 50s. Thank you for the replies thus far
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Because you are installing three new branch circuits, 2011 NEC 210.12(A) Exception No. 1 says you can use the OBC AFCI at the first Outlet on the branch circuit as long as that first branch circuit leg is done by the Chapter 3 methods listed.

JFletcher said:
#2: Re: #1, I looked but cannot find where code would require lights and receptacles on separate circuits (2012 IRC, based mostly on 2011 NEC).
Click to expand...
If the old dining room receptacles were extended off of the original Small Appliance Branch Circuits, the dining room lighting would have been required to not be on either of those two SABCs. That's it. Nothing in the NEC "requires" the lighting in a bedroom to be on a different circuit than the receptacles.

JFletcher said:
#3: Does the closet require a light?
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The NEC is silent about this. . . so, no.

JFletcher said:
#4: I've found baseboard heaters with wireless thermostats; any caveat or tips with those?
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I haven't got any experience with these, either.

JFletcher said:
eta: the existing switch for the overhead light/fan is on a switch loop, no neutral. Can this stay or does new wiring have to be pulled in? and all of the existing wire is 2 wire cloth NM.
Click to expand...
To my thinking, this is where local AHJ convention of how remodeling is regulated, if at all, kicks in. In my area, if 50%, or more, of a room's wall is open to the framing, the entire room (only) is wired to new construction requirements. Otherwise, if the switch location and light/fan are undisturbed, here, they are allowed to remain undisturbed.
 
chris1971 said:
I would bid a Panel Replacement.
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Coppersmith said:
You could try, but most HO won't change the panel unless an insurance company is forcing them no matter how dangerous it is.
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I think in most cases I can sell a panel replacement to a homeowner if they plan to live in the house but if they plan to rent it or sell it then it gets a lot harder.

I wouldn't bid a panel replacement but I would talk to the owner or GC and see just what they are interested in doing with the property. A lot of these older homes are in upscale neighborhoods and they my want a hot tub or EV charger or other equipment in the future. They may wish to get electric water heater or ranges or even a long term plan for a heat pump or central AC. Who knows, if you ask enough question it can lead to a service upgrade.

Not much money in a bedroom remodel anyway so there is nothing to lose by trying to see what you can sell.
 
Thanks again for all the replies, they have been very helpful. The HO is going for a panel change (not upgrade; still 125A, but will be a new SqD HOM). The conversion of the dining room to a bedroom involves only framing in 2 new walls, a door, and a closet: nothing is being demo'd or opened up. I was over there earlier talking with the HO and starting the project. I removed the existing ceiling fan and opened its switch; it's not a switch loop and does have a neutral there. It was a bit of relief to see that the fan box wasnt where the power was fed to and 'spidering' out to the existing receptacles, and that it is an actual fan rated box (plaster ceilings and running boards in the attic).

There are no AFCI for FPE panels that I know of but it's a non-issue now anyway.

goldstar, VA is pretty slack on AFCI but changing it from a dining room wired in the 50s to a bedroom built and wired now does make it need an AFCI breaker.

2broke2sleep, I will have to wire it according to 2012 IRC, but that is one (eta: two with the dedicated window AC receptacle; 240V baseboard heaters are exempt under our current code) AFCI breaker and a hardwired smoke/CO detector (and a few more receptacles with EGCs(new circuits)). Footprint of the house is unchanged, no sq ft are being added, but the change of room type will require those things. Because this is a minor remodel, I will not have to bring anything else in the house up to current codes.
 
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Well, you're lucky. In MA we would have to wire smoke/carbon/heat detectors to code for the whole house because you're adding a bedroom. That's the way they decided how and when to require the house brought up to code in that area.
 
Besides the smoke detectors inside and out the bedroom, af circuit, and closet they may need to change the window..
Closet light?
Not necessarily electrical, but something to be mindful when reworking things.
Has to be a certain size and height off the floor to be able to use as an escape.
Older 1950's homes tended to have smaller windows up high.
 
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