Convincing homeowners to have FPE panels replaced

[junkhound]

fire caused by receptacles which don't hold onto a cord anymore

Excellent comment and point ! A common complaint is outlets that cord plugs fall out of!

Or, use 20A spec grade outlets only vs. $3/box of 10 or 12 cheapie type. Doubt many builders would go for that though except high end homes.
Had to replace ALL the outlets in son's home after only 15 years*, even ones that probably had never been used, all were cheap backstab outlets to start with.

Spec grade 20A (mostly Hubble, some Leviton) in own house built in 1974, all outlets still tight except one that was used almost every other day at high current for 35 years for the vacuum cleaner.

*they bought it when it was 14 YO, fairly high end home too.

 

[mbrooke]

Is there any tester available to check if specific FPE or Zinsco breakers are 'good'?

If tested good, will they remain good?

What is the cause of them being bad, poor basic design or poor manufacturing of certain lots.

Have never seen those queries answered, only generalities that FPE and Zinsco sometimes fail to trip or that quality so low that 30-50% fail to trip (implies mfg defects) . If a mfg defect or lack of factory testing, it would seem a test could tell one if a certain panel needed to be replaced.

E. g possible technique to OP question - plug in a tester (hypothetical, say a GE breaker of same but a few percent higher amperage ?) , show that tester trips before the panel breaker, demonstrating the FPE is 'no good'. ?

Even if they test fine once, they can still fail at another time. The issue is not so much the trip curve as that some will jam when they trip at the correct time. 2 poles are notorious for this via binding of the common trip mechanism, and both single and double poles use a spring as a main fulcrum. Other issues are welding of the main contacts and the copper braid bumping up against the bi-metal effectively shorting it out partially or completely. I could go on but those are the biggies.

 

[mbrooke]

OK.
"Secondly, the recent testing of FPE Stab-Lok® circuit breakers now includes breakers from 28 homes across
the Country."
OK.
That's 28 out of 30 million.

I wonder how other manufacturers compare?

You bring up a valid point here. But- other manufactures did not feel the need to forge cheat UL labeling. This to me would be an automatic give away they knew they had something to hide.

 

[brian john]

Is there any tester available to check if specific FPE or Zinsco breakers are 'good'?

If tested good, will they remain good?

What is the cause of them being bad, poor basic design or poor manufacturing of certain lots.

Have never seen those queries answered, only generalities that FPE and Zinsco sometimes fail to trip or that quality so low that 30-50% fail to trip (implies mfg defects) . If a mfg defect or lack of factory testing, it would seem a test could tell one if a certain panel needed to be replaced.

E. g possible technique to OP question - plug in a tester (hypothetical, say a GE breaker of same but a few percent higher amperage ?) , show that tester trips before the panel breaker, demonstrating the FPE is 'no good'. ?

I own several circuit breakers testers

A small high current test set is around $8,500.00, Megger $100.00-1$,000.00 DLRO $4,000.00

A few years back I tested 10 different FPE snap in style CBs (older ones not from Canada) and all operated fine, tested within their TCC and Meggered in an acceptable range. Does not mean this was a good test due to the small quantity.

 

[mbrooke]

A few years back I tested 10 different FPE snap in style CBs (older ones not from Canada) and all operated fine, tested within their TCC and Meggered in an acceptable range. Does not mean this was a good test due to the small quantity.

They were those black handle (pre 65) FPE breakers, right? I'd be less concerned about those unlike the red toggled ones.

 

[curt swartz]

I have stated this before on the forums.

In the SF Bay Area we have a number of companies that specialize in selling new and used circuit breakers and distribution equipment. They sell many thousands of used breakers that are no longer manufactured other than the Chinese manufacture selling replacement breakers of some brands. They test all breakers prior to sale. I have asked the testing guys at several of the companies over the years what the failure rate of FPE Stab Lok's are during testing. They have all responded that the FPE's failure rate is no worse than any of the old small breakers.

Does this mean that FPE's will not fail? No!

It does mean that a 50+ year old QO, BR, THQL, QQ, etc. probably has just as good of chance of failing.

I have read many times that Zinsco breakers don't trip either but that has not been my experience. Zinsco's do have a high breaker to buss connection failure though. When I used to do service work I found SquareD QO breaker to buss failures almost as common as Zinsco's. This might be related to older QO's having AL buss connections.

FPE and Zinsco are now considered very old equipment. Combined there are probably 1000 times more of them than any other breakers in service. Failure rate is going to be higher do to age and number of devices in service.

I have found that old breakers such as Zinsco and FPE seem to have a very high magnetic trip time. I'm not sure if that is due to the breaker age of if the original design requirements.r

 

[ActionDave]

I have stated this before on the forums...

Well said.

I'm in a place with an FPE panel at least once a month, commercial and residential. I tell people that they should replace them because they are obsolete and that they do have a bad reputation, I don't use any scare tactics.

 

[tortuga]

you could still buy the Canadian versions of the Stab-Lok breakers (they were grey) and install them in the panels. Then later still, other mfrs came out with replacement breakers designed to plug into Stab-Lok panels.

If you really cant sell a panel change and have to work on a FPE panel I'll expand on this interesting point about the canadian breakers. They are manufactured by Schneider Electric (Basically Square D) with updated engineering. I would guess using these is better than the UBI ones that are licensed the 1980's patent, and likely the old tech.
I have had success with the FPE 15A AFCI breaker.

 

[zog]

The effective death knell for FPE panels and breakers came from a website called InspectAPedia a few years ago who released a scathing report on the potential dangers of FPE Stab-Lok breakers, in which they implied everything about FPE was dangerous. Insurance companies cite that report a lot when insisting that old FPE equipment be removed. Whether or not you believe them is up to you. The US Government Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) did a two year study on them after the UL listing loss, concluding that they could not substantiate the reports of failure to trip. Again, whether or not you believe a government agency is up to you, but the fact that this report exists is sometimes used to reject paying for upgrades.

Bottom line, you can get caught in the middle if you attempt to take sides. Offer to replace them if someone agrees to pay, but get that contract up front, because if people ASSUME they will get someone else to pay you, you might get left holding the bag.

Inspectapedia is linked to a nationwide EC marketing group that uses that site to sell panel upgrades, if FPE was still around their lawyers would be all over it but since they are not in business anymore it's fair game.

Technically Federal Pacific never fudged any UL tests, they had already filed bankrupt when the UL test issues came up, it was during a period (79-80) where FPE was sold to a company called UV industries (Owned by Sharon steel) then sold to Reliance (Owned by Exxon at the time) who found the lapse in testing and in turn sued Sharon steel/reliance over it and the deal was voided. Couple years later the CPSC investigation occurred and in 86 Reliance again sold off the stab lok line to Challenger.

 

[zog]

A few years back I tested 10 different FPE snap in style CBs (older ones not from Canada) and all operated fine, tested within their TCC and Meggered in an acceptable range. Does not mean this was a good test due to the small quantity.

It was a small qty but about the same as the "research paper" that everyone quotes as the gospel, your testing was just as if not more valid than the one on inspectepedia.

 

[zog]

I have stated this before on the forums.

In the SF Bay Area we have a number of companies that specialize in selling new and used circuit breakers and distribution equipment. They sell many thousands of used breakers that are no longer manufactured other than the Chinese manufacture selling replacement breakers of some brands. They test all breakers prior to sale. I have asked the testing guys at several of the companies over the years what the failure rate of FPE Stab Lok's are during testing. They have all responded that the FPE's failure rate is no worse than any of the old small breakers.

Does this mean that FPE's will not fail? No!

It does mean that a 50+ year old QO, BR, THQL, QQ, etc. probably has just as good of chance of failing.

Exactly! Age and outdated design are the reasons to replace them, not the name on the label.

 

[zog]

If you really cant sell a panel change and have to work on a FPE panel I'll expand on this interesting point about the canadian breakers. They are manufactured by Schneider Electric (Basically Square D) with updated engineering. I would guess using these is better than the UBI ones that are licensed the 1980's patent, and likely the old tech.
I have had success with the FPE 15A AFCI breaker.

Yes but they are not supposed to be sold in the USA. Oregon breakers was sued in 2000 for selling the grey Canadian stab loks in the US.

 

[Coppersmith]

But my question is, how could I have better success in convincing homeowners to have these hazardous things replaced?

You cannot convince 99% of homeowners to replace a panel that still works. Anything you say to them sounds like a lie to get their money. Anything you show them including websites, reports, and news articles from reputable sources sounds like a lie to get their money. I've tried. When I change a panel in a condo community that I know every unit was built with the same bad panel, I've sent out marketing materials to the other units with information detailing the problem, showing pictures of good and bad breakers, and the link below and got no responses. I've talked to numerous people about these panels with no sales.

https://tinyurl.com/FPEdanger

The only thing that causes people to change these panels is (1) a fire or arcing event; or (2) their insurance company will not give them a policy. I have changed many FPE/Sylvania/Zinsco panels and 99% are because of the above two reasons.

I would not personally do this, however, the only way I can see to force the issue is to find out who their insurance company is and rat them out (anonymously of course). Make sure you leave a business card taped to their panel so in six months when they decide they better get the panel changed to renew their insurance, they call you.

 

[infinity]

Around here almost all FPE equipment is over 50 years old. We just say that it has reached it useful age limit and should be replaced. The Internet is full of misinformation so quotng sources that say that FPE panel must be removed for various reasons can be perilous especially if your statements sink a deal that has attorneys involved.

 

[gadfly56]

Around here almost all FPE equipment is over 50 years old. We just say that it has reached it useful age limit and should be replaced. The Internet is full of misinformation so qouting sources that say that FPE panel must be removed for various reasons can be perilous especially if your statements sink a deal that has attorneys involved.

Yes, very important indeed! Don't let the prospect of a profitable service change allow your mouth to get you in trouble.

 

[Electromatic]

I have replaced dozens if not a couple hundred FedPac panels. Usually this is because of a home inspection report pending a sale or sometimes an insurance company. Whenever I see them, even without other parties involved, I recommend replacing them. This is partially because at this point they have already had a long life and partially because I do believe there are issues with the panel and breaker designs. However, I never scare people into doing it. There are obviously a lot of them still around and haven't burnt down the houses they're in.

That said, I have personally experienced their breakers failing a few times. In one house years ago, the homeowner damaged an extension cord with some lawn equipment. Instead of tripping the breaker, the entire branch circuit run of NM melted: 80-100' of outer sheath and conductors' insulation. Another time, I was working on a house with a FedPac and accidentally shorted a circuit. The breaker never tripped. As an experiment, I repeatedly dead-shorted the wires. Each time, a little copper would melt away but never did the breaker respond!

 

[Fulthrotl]

I own several circuit breakers testers

A small high current test set is around $8,500.00, Megger $100.00-1$,000.00 DLRO $4,000.00

A few years back I tested 10 different FPE snap in style CBs (older ones not from Canada) and all operated fine, tested within their TCC and Meggered in an acceptable range. Does not mean this was a good test due to the small quantity.

no, but it means we know where to get ten good circuit breakers.

 

[Besoeker]

You cannot convince 99% of homeowners to replace a panel that still works. Anything you say to them sounds like a lie to get their money. Anything you show them including websites, reports, and news articles from reputable sources sounds like a lie to get their money. I've tried. When I change a panel in a condo community that I know every unit was built with the same bad panel, I've sent out marketing materials to the other units with information detailing the problem, showing pictures of good and bad breakers, and the link below and got no responses. I've talked to numerous people about these panels with no sales.

https://tinyurl.com/FPEdanger

Investigative journalists.....

 

[mbrooke]

I have read many times that Zinsco breakers don't trip either but that has not been my experience. Zinsco's do have a high breaker to buss connection failure though. When I used to do service work I found SquareD QO breaker to buss failures almost as common as Zinsco's. This might be related to older QO's having AL buss connections.

I'd argue that QO is perhaps the most failure prone out of all the brands in this regard.

I have found that old breakers such as Zinsco and FPE seem to have a very high magnetic trip time. I'm not sure if that is due to the breaker age of if the original design requirements.r

Technically speaking FPE breakers are purely thermal. It is advertised as magnetic trip, and yes they do have a magnetic pole piece, however they still rely on the bi-metal bending back to initiate trip unlike modern breakers where either the thermal piece or magnetic piece alone can initiate trip.

Inspectapedia is linked to a nationwide EC marketing group that uses that site to sell panel upgrades, if FPE was still around their lawyers would be all over it but since they are not in business anymore it's fair game.

Technically Federal Pacific never fudged any UL tests, they had already filed bankrupt when the UL test issues came up, it was during a period (79-80) where FPE was sold to a company called UV industries (Owned by Sharon steel) then sold to Reliance (Owned by Exxon at the time) who found the lapse in testing and in turn sued Sharon steel/reliance over it and the deal was voided. Couple years later the CPSC investigation occurred and in 86 Reliance again sold off the stab lok line to Challenger.

Maybe, but there is still a lot that anyone looking to bash FPE can stand on not existent with most other brands.

 

[mbrooke]

Exactly! Age and outdated design are the reasons to replace them, not the name on the label.

But what about known bad design? Though I do understand where you are coming from.