Convincing homeowners to have FPE panels replaced

[tortuga]

Yes but they are not supposed to be sold in the USA. Oregon breakers was sued in 2000 for selling the grey Canadian stab loks in the US.

Thats interesting!

Technically speaking FPE breakers are purely thermal. It is advertised as magnetic trip, and yes they do have a magnetic pole piece, however they still rely on the bi-metal bending back to initiate trip unlike modern breakers where either the thermal piece or magnetic piece alone can initiate trip.

Do you know if thats the case with the current Canadian stab lok currently being sold ?

 

[zog]

But what about known bad design? Though I do understand where you are coming from.

Yes it was a poor design, or maybe designed with price in mind, back in the day they were the least expensive breakers on the market, that's why you see so many of them in trailers and such.

 

[mbrooke]

Thats interesting!


Do you know if thats the case with the current Canadian stab lok currently being sold ?

Sadly I have no idea I only know the details about the US versions. But FWIW, I am starting to gather that they were sold all over the world. Lots of threads like this pop up about FPE having been over seas:


http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=431336

Yes it was a poor design, or maybe designed with price in mind, back in the day they were the least expensive breakers on the market, that's why you see so many of them in trailers and such.

They were economy breakers no doubt. Not just trailers, but government buildings as well. Anywhere an electrical panel was needed really. Their price is what made them so popular. But I do wonder how much it would have cost to use a solid metal pin instead of a spring for a fulcrum.

 

[readydave8]

In fact, some FPE breakers have even been known to remain powered up even after the handle has been moved to the OFF position manually.

hard to remember which is the OFF position, though

 

[OBi]

Back in 2001 I asked UL about FPE having their listing pulled. His response is paraphrased here:

"This rumor keeps getting more exaggerated every time I hear it. Federal Pacific has not had UL listings for breakers and panelboards for many years. However, this is because they sold off these businesses; NOT because of any action by UL to 'pull their ratings."

Dan Modinin
Underwriters Laboratories Inc.
Associate Managing Engineer
Consumer Affairs Department

When Federal Pacific sold off its businesses, the US rights went to Challenger who slowly phased them out. The Canadian rights went to a spin off; Federal Pioneer Ltd. Federal Pioneer was manufacturing the breakers for the US market as well as the Canadian market. Up until recently they were installing the Stab-Lok breakers in new construction in Canada.

And by the way; he owner of Federal Pioneer is none other than Schneider Electric, known here in the US for their Square D line of gear.

 

[mbrooke]

All true.

FWIW stab-lock has been replaced by Homeline in Canada. Thats not to say the Schneider FPE is bad- I highly doubt those breakers are anything close to Federal Pioneer. And while hearsay, from what I have heard, Federal Pioneer may not have had the same problems as the American FPE.

 

[GoldDigger]

Back in 2001 I asked UL about FPE having their listing pulled. His response is paraphrased here:

"This rumor keeps getting more exaggerated every time I hear it. Federal Pacific has not had UL listings for breakers and panelboards for many years. However, this is because they sold off these businesses; NOT because of any action by UL to 'pull their ratings."

Dan Modinin
Underwriters Laboratories Inc.
Associate Managing Engineer
Consumer Affairs Department

When Federal Pacific sold off its businesses, the US rights went to Challenger who slowly phased them out. The Canadian rights went to a spin off; Federal Pioneer Ltd. Federal Pioneer was manufacturing the breakers for the US market as well as the Canadian market. Up until recently they were installing the Stab-Lok breakers in new construction in Canada.

And by the way; he owner of Federal Pioneer is none other than Schneider Electric, known here in the US for their Square D line of gear.

However, there is also no questioning that certain types of FPE breakers were fraudulently given the UL mark, and so without additional identifying information those model FPE breakers cannot be considered as "listed". The later production of the same general model breaker, with proper QC and testing, legitimately carries the UL mark. I am not sure what fraction of those were produced after the sale though.

So the listing was not "pulled" but the mark itself could no longer be trusted.

 

[jaggedben]

...
But my question is, how could I have better success in convincing homeowners to have these hazardous things replaced? Just based on what I found this weekend, I have reason to believe that most indoor panels in my neighborhood are FPE brand. There are a lot of houses with outdoor panels, but most are GE; I don't think FPE made panels rated for outdoors.

Seems like you did right. Tell people it's hazardous. Tell them to google it.

In my area there are tens of thousands of homes with FPE panels and they don't cause fires everyday. I mean, what are we talking about here compared to better brands? That with FPE there's a 1-in-10,000 chance that your home will have an electrical fire in the next ten years, vs a 1-in-1,000,000 chance? I think it makes sense that insurance companies enforce this by refusing coverage or charging higher premiums. Basically it comes down to probabilities. But it isn't nearly as dangerous, in my estimation, as a panelboard in a detached garage that has neither an equipment ground or a bonded neutral. That's my definition of a relatively commonplace 'you really need to fix this right away' type of problem. Just sayin', for perspective.

FPE did make outdoor panels, by the way.

 

[wyreman]

Connecticut Electric

Connecticut Electric


The owner is an old friend
First impulse is to decline.

what about these newer Listed fp cbs?
Intertek ETL Listing to UL Standard 489 for US and Canada-Molded case circuit breakers
https://thd.co/2G0bgap
He has an apartment house with 10meter bank will never fit a modern meter bank in there.
Insurance wants...

The main fp fuse looks ok in the photo. I'd have to go exercise it.
Fuses are fuses. If the handle is solid, clean, tight, dry that shouldn't be an issue.
I worked for the state of california for 15 years on institutional trouble calls.
My boss was a Vietnam era Ship Commander - he liked to maintain and fix things.

now the distribution - ugly meters.
Would have to dig in there and make sure the buss aren't sparked or loose
but if they are tight, lightly loaded
no space heaters needed in the facility
& if the new breakers are really listed...
http://d163axztg8am2h.cloudfront.net/static/doc/4f/a3/398b88204df5aee0b01142ddd45d.pdf

On the other hand, the busywork in the distribution above may be tired.
You would have to take all the covers off, IR it and shake it to make sure its all tight and lightly loaded.

and most of all, listen to what the AHJ has to say.

 

[Klockopotomis]

In my experience I have heard of homeowners saying the same line as mentioned earlier-"my breakers work fine, why should I replace them". I reply with with- "Thats exactly what a faulty FPE breaker would do. They don't trip when they should. A breaker that trips is typically a good breaker" (in general)

I did a home remodel last year and gave the price for a service change as well as all the electrical upgrades. Customer declined the upgrade but went thru with 80k of home renovations. i was called back later because the dryer stopped working. The culprit was a screw run thru it for a shelf. Wire was smoking in the wall for 2 days, completely charred. She still didn't want to change it out, even with 4 kids in the house-smh
So now I cite this example bc it illustrates the seriousness of a breaker not tripping. Btw, the screw went thru the ground and neutral and hot, breaker turned on and off numerous times and wouldn't trip-yikes

 

[cowboyjwc]

Like some of the others, in 40 years as an electrician and an inspector, I have never seen more problems with FPE or Zinsco than other types of panels and we have a bunch of both in this town. Same goes for aluminum wire. I used to get calls about once a month from someone buying a house and wanting me to have the owners rewire it. I would simply tell them that if you're that concerned, there are plenty of houses in town with copper wire you can buy.

I never offered a service change to anyone, if they asked me to, then I changed it.

Heck I have an FPE in my house and the breakers trip just fine, I know because I had a motor in my table saw going bad and it would trip the breaker at least twice a weekend when I was building a lot.

 

[mbrooke]

Like some of the others, in 40 years as an electrician and an inspector, I have never seen more problems with FPE or Zinsco than other types of panels and we have a bunch of both in this town. Same goes for aluminum wire. I used to get calls about once a month from someone buying a house and wanting me to have the owners rewire it. I would simply tell them that if you're that concerned, there are plenty of houses in town with copper wire you can buy.

I never offered a service change to anyone, if they asked me to, then I changed it.

Heck I have an FPE in my house and the breakers trip just fine, I know because I had a motor in my table saw going bad and it would trip the breaker at least twice a weekend when I was building a lot.

Its not that all breakers will fail to trip- but an elevated percentage of them.

 

[growler]

Like some of the others, in 40 years as an electrician and an inspector, I have never seen more problems with FPE or Zinsco than other types of panels and we have a bunch of both in this town.

I have changed out a lot of FPE panels in the past years. A few just because the owners wanted them changed but most because they were bad.

The problem with an FPE panel is that many people don't install the breakers correctly. If the breakers are not installed right and they start to arc and heat up that's about it, you have to change the panel.

The one's where the breakers are installed correctly don't seem to be giving any unusual problems.

The same can be said for Aluminum wire. If it was insalled and maintained correctly it will not be a real problem but most of it was not correctly installed or maintained.

 

[readydave8]

The problem with an FPE panel is that many people don't install the breakers correctly. If the breakers are not installed right and they start to arc and heat up that's about it, you have to change the panel.

incorrectly how?

 

[ptonsparky]

I probably installed one of the last 150 Amp FPE residential load centers before stuff hit the fan. I also had the pleasure of having to tell that same customer I had to replace it 15 or 20 years later when he wanted to add a hot tub. Fun.

 

[jmellc]

i remember using trip wires to locate breakers on FPE panels. Sometimes I had to wire nut the trip wires together to get the breaker to trip. Square D breakers trip instantly, so do CH ch. CH br & Siemens slightly longer but not too much. GE might go either way. GE is today's junk brand IMHO. 2nd place I ever worked used FPE because it was most available. I had used QO at 1st job. What a letdown to start using FPE. This was in the 70's. I learned to hate FPE with a passion then and I still hate it now.

But it is a losing battle to tell homeowners anything. They see no issue if the light comes on when you hit the switch. If breakers don't trip, why is that a bad thing? A tripped breaker might kill the TV or stereo. Now that would be a problem.