Cord connected furnace

[jap]

NEC says that the disconnecting means must be within sight of the appliance.

I don't know what 70E says regarding this, but pretty certain many LOTO procedures will still want you to lock that disconnecting means even if within sight. If a cord/plug is the disconnecting means LOTO procedures often say you need a lockable cover and lock to put over the cord end so it can't be plugged in while "locked out".

Since you quoted most everyone, I'll only respond to my small part of it.

I don't know how this went from what seemed to be a post about a residential furnace to a full blown boiler situation with an emergency power off,but, I bet my AC Disconnect install to a furnace blower in a residential install would pass most inspections without concern.

Also, I'm not sure what the Lock out tag out requirements are in a dwelling unit,but, as long as I've got the pullout in my pocket while I'm working on a unit that's probably no further tha 4 feet away from the disconnect, I really don't care.

JAP<

 

[hbiss]

I don't know how this went from what seemed to be a post about a residential furnace to a full blown boiler situation with an emergency power off, but, I bet my AC Disconnect install to a furnace blower in a residential install would pass most inspections without concern.

Just to be clear, I was talking about residential installations. Everyplace I know of requires a service switch on the side of the furnace/boiler so the unit can be shut down by the service person. While there is nothing that would prohibit a pull-out type disconnect, I have never seen one used for that application. All that is required is a toggle switch, usually with a 1900 box and austin cover.

Then we have the requirement for an emergency shut off. If the heating unit is located in the attic, the emergency shutoff would be located on the wall below the access hatch or pull-down to the attic. If in the basement, it would be located at the top of the stairs leading to the basement. If in a separate room, the switch must be located outside the door leading to that room.

-Hal

 

[busman]

Perfect! I was looking for that to suggest but I couldn't find anything that small. :thumbsup: Looks like it's even made exactly for the application.

-Hal

I have installed quite a few of those.

Mark

 

[goldstar]

Here's another type of transfer switch that can be used :

http://ezgeneratorswitch.com/

If it is the intent of the OP to use a 3-way switch in lieu of a device like this for a portable generator hook up I'm sure he's not the first one to think about doing this and I'm sure it's been done many times before by DYIers. That doesn't make it right though.

3-way switch, cord cap and wire (maybe $10.00 or so)

This device with free shipping - $81.00

Now you know why there are those out there that want to circumvent this expense.

 

[jap]

3-way switch, cord cap and wire (maybe $10.00 or so)

This device with free shipping - $81.00

Now you know why there are those out there that want to circumvent this expense.

Seems expense has always had a funny way of triggering most hack type Non-NEC compliant transfer switch installs.


JAP>

 

[jap]

Here's another type of transfer switch that can be used :

http://ezgeneratorswitch.com/

I keep forgetting what a wide area this forum covers.

We don't have any Boiler units in our area used for heat. Just the simple indoor Gas Furnace Units mostly.

It's also interesting that most of the panel in these areas seem to be surface mounted in the basement, and, most of the generator items are mostly for surface mount indoor installs.

That's not the case in our area. Most all panels are flush mount, and, if a generator needs to be connected to a transfer switch, you have to somehow get the circuitry outside, and, most all of that will require 3r rated equipment.

JAP>

 

[hbiss]

I keep forgetting what a wide area this forum covers.

We don't have any Boiler units in our area used for heat. Just the simple indoor Gas Furnace Units mostly.

It's also interesting that most of the panel in these areas seem to be surface mounted in the basement, and, most of the generator items are mostly for surface mount indoor installs.

That's not the case in our area. Most all panels are flush mount, and, if a generator needs to be connected to a transfer switch, you have to somehow get the circuitry outside, and, most all of that will require 3r rated equipment.

JAP>

My intention with both of those transfer switches would be to mount them right on the side of the furnace next to the service switch box and connect them with a nipple or Greenfield. The whole idea was that the home owner wanted to run an extension cord just to the furnace anyway, right?

If you are going to mess with the panel, it makes sense to use one of the interlock kits or transfer boxes so you can power other circuits also, not something like those little one circuit transfer switches.

-Hal

 

[jap]

My intention with both of those transfer switches would be to mount them right on the side of the furnace next to the service switch box and connect them with a nipple or Greenfield. The whole idea was that the home owner wanted to run an extension cord just to the furnace anyway, right?

If you are going to mess with the panel, it makes sense to use one of the interlock kits or transfer boxes so you can power other circuits also, not something like those little one circuit transfer switches.

-Hal

Around here, our generator would be parked outside the back door in a "lights out situation".
Then they'd have to run an extension cord through a door or window from the generator hrough the house or up into the attic to get to where the blower unit is located.

If the unit doesn't have a cord and plug installed on it in the first place, they're SOL.

Oddly enough, furnace installs around here ARE mostly all cord and plug connected so it works out for them.

There would be no need for the fancy single circuit transfer switch in most of our instances. Just plug the furnace directly into the extension cord while your there.

Although all of this is not Kosher, it's simply a fact of what homeowners do in a power outage to try and keep the heat and fridge up an running.

That along with making "Dead Man" cords and plugging into their Dryer Outlets to reenergize the whole panel.

I don't know how more power company guys don't keep from getting hurt during power outages.

JAP>

 

[hbiss]

Oddly enough, furnace installs around here ARE mostly all cord and plug connected so it works out for them.

There would be no need for the fancy single circuit transfer switch in most of our instances. Just plug the furnace directly into the extension cord while your there.

If the AHJs were doing their jobs there would be much less of this and more work for the ECs. I think the whole "line cord connected furnace thing" discourages the homeowners from having a proper transfer arrangement installed and encourages all kinds of other unsafe practices. They figure the heat is the most important thing and all they need is an extension cord, so why bother. If there was no easy way to power the heat, you can bet that they would line up to have at least a generator inlet and one of the interlock/transfer methods installed. ECs make a lot of money here doing just that every time there is a bad storm or hurricane forecast. After that, whole house generators with ATSs are a big seller. So I wouldn't be so matter of fact about or condone cord and plug connected heating or A/C systems because you are shooting yourself in the foot. I would challenge any AHJ who approved such an installation if I had anything to do with the job.

-Hal

 

[kwired]

Since you quoted most everyone, I'll only respond to my small part of it.

I don't know how this went from what seemed to be a post about a residential furnace to a full blown boiler situation with an emergency power off,but, I bet my AC Disconnect install to a furnace blower in a residential install would pass most inspections without concern.

Also, I'm not sure what the Lock out tag out requirements are in a dwelling unit,but, as long as I've got the pullout in my pocket while I'm working on a unit that's probably no further tha 4 feet away from the disconnect, I really don't care.

JAP<

LOTO is not NEC requirements, but safe work practices are an OSHA thing. If you are self employed do what you want, you basically aren't bound to OSHA, if you have employees they are though, and if they get hurt or killed your liability goes up if you don't have acceptable safety policy/procedures for the kinds of hazards you ordinarily encounter. If you just say you follow 70E, then you must be following it, you can't pick and choose what parts to follow without your own policy that tells what you will do different from what it says, and even for those things you better have good research, tests and other justification for straying from rules that are in there or they aren't even considering your modification as being acceptable.

AC disconnect had better pass inspection, or the inspector needs to be educated.

Just to be clear, I was talking about residential installations. Everyplace I know of requires a service switch on the side of the furnace/boiler so the unit can be shut down by the service person. While there is nothing that would prohibit a pull-out type disconnect, I have never seen one used for that application. All that is required is a toggle switch, usually with a 1900 box and austin cover.

Then we have the requirement for an emergency shut off. If the heating unit is located in the attic, the emergency shutoff would be located on the wall below the access hatch or pull-down to the attic. If in the basement, it would be located at the top of the stairs leading to the basement. If in a separate room, the switch must be located outside the door leading to that room.

-Hal

These switches are required by codes other than NEC. Unless they are "within sight" of the appliance, they don't count as the required disconnecting means that must be within sight of the appliance. Locking means on the branch circuit device can be acceptable for many things, but is not for a motor driven appliance. Is a typical gas furnace a motor driven appliance or not? IDK, many will say it is.

 

[Andy Delle]

Cord connected furnaces are SOP in southern California at least since the 1980s.

 

[hbiss]

Just think of all the money you could make by informing customers that their furnace wiring is a code violation and fixing it. :thumbsup:

-Hal

 

[kwired]

Just think of all the money you could make by informing customers that their furnace wiring is a code violation and fixing it. :thumbsup:

-Hal

How many would remove one code violation yet introduce another in that situation?:blink:

 

[MAC702]

The very few I encounter that aren't cord-and-plug, are in attics, and are invariably backstabbed into a 15A snap switch. And I've been called out to fix hundreds of them WHEN they fail. Code-compliancy pays me well.

 

[hornetd]

Come to think of it, every 120V tank or tankless water heater I've seen has been plugged in to a dedicated receptacle, too.
Same with permanently mounted
Those are all things that are permanently fixed. And I've never seen one that wasn't connected with cord-and-plug, and I fix them on a regular basis.

The cords for 120V furnaces are sold with the furnace at the wholesale house. It's not like hacks are having to go to Home Depot to do it.

Now, washers, dryers, and refrigerators I'm guessing are not normally considered to be permanent? What conditions would make them so? I've seen large refrigerators that are built-in as part of the cabinetry. They are still plugged in. I've seen Jacuzzi tubs that are, *shudders* plugged in.

Now, I'm no home builder, but I work in 10K ghetto houses and 5M mansions. They are all the same, whether built 70 years ago or last year.

I don't know what to tell you except that's how it is here. And this is a county with more HVAC contractors than you can shake a stick at.

Dishwashers and garbage disposals qualify as equipment requiring frequent repair or replacement and they have fittings to facilitate removal. Most Food Waste Disposers that I've seen can be removed by simple rotation of the unit to disengage it from the sink drain adapter.