Cords Versus Cord Equipped Appliances Located Above a Suspended Ceiling

[lpalmer]

I understand that cords are not allowed to be located above suspended ceilings, per 2005 NEC Section 400.8(5).

However, Section 300.23 indicates that suspended ceiling panels are allowed to be used to access equipment.

And given that Article 400.7(A)(8) states: Cords may be used for appliances.

And given that Article 400.8 states: Unless specifically permitted in 400.7, flexible cords and cables shall not be used in the following: (5) where concealed by walls, floors, or ceilings or located above suspended or dropped ceilings. And Section 400.7 specifically allows use of cords for appliances. I do not see where the NEC restricts the use of cord equipped appliances above a suspended ceiling.

The area above suspended ceiling used for environmental air, would be a questionable location for a cord equipped appliance: However, wouldn’t the cord equipped appliance be acceptable if it met the requirements of 300.22(C)(2)?

If it's really the intent that cord equipped appliances are not permitted above a suspended ceiling, then shouldn't the NEC disallow receptacles in the same location and clarify the rules?

 

[raider1]

There is nothing in 400.7 that specifically allows the use of flexible cord above a suspended ceiling.

400.7(A)(8) permits the use of flexible cord for appliances but not specifically for appliances installed above a suspended ceiling.

If it's really the intent that cord equipped appliances are not permitted above a suspended ceiling, then shouldn't the NEC disallow receptacles in the same location and clarify the rules?

Receptacles are permitted to be installed above suspended ceilings and it is permissible to plug in a "wall wort" or other direct plug in appliance or device. Again it is the intent of the NEC to limit the locations for the use of flexible cord due to the inherent deterioration charateristics that flexible cords have.

Appliances that utilize flexible cords installed above ceilings would be hard to visually inspect.

Chris

 

[lpalmer]

Do you have any examples where "unless specifically permitted in 400.7" is applicable?

 

[raider1]

Do you have any examples where "unless specifically permitted in 400.7" is applicable?

How about this:

700.7(A)(10) states "Where specifically permitted elsewhere in this code."

So if we go to 645.5(B) and(D) cord and plug connection are specifically permitted to be installed under floors in information technology rooms.

Chris

 

[lpalmer]

refer to the next message

 

[lpalmer]

Thank you for the replies,

If there are no examples for 400.7(A)(1) through (9) that apply to 400.8 "unless specifically permitted in 400.7". Then 400.7(A)(10) "Where specifically permitted elsewhere in the Code" should replace, 400.8 "unless specifically permitted in 400.7", or just remove the term "unless specifically permitted in 400.7" altogether.

 

[raider1]

You are welcome.

I agree that the sentence "Unless specifically permitted in 400.7" can be very misleading.

Chris

 

[ItsHot]

condensate tp's

condensate tp's

Condensate transfer pumps for ac's is one of the biggest violations that I see with this topic. Then you see wall mounted pumps below ceilings in office areas to comply, and you know what that looks like!

 

[lpalmer]

Condensate pumps are an issue. This is an appliance that is replaced on a regular basis. It serves an air handler or fan coil unit that may be mounted above a suspended ceiling, possibly in a large office without walls close to mount on below the ceiling.

I understand why we don't want extension cords running above a suspended ceiling and don't understand why the Code does not clearly allow cord equipped appliances above a suspended ceiling, especially a ceiling that is not insulated and has basically the same interior environment as the office area below.

Obviously I am not totally convinced that the code does not permit this above a suspended ceiling. As I've previously discussed.

One more thing to consider: Should we evaluate a listed cord equipped appliance by using Article 400? Or should the entire appliance be evaluated using Article 422?

 

[raider1]

I understand why we don't want extension cords running above a suspended ceiling and don't understand why the Code does not clearly allow cord equipped appliances above a suspended ceiling, especially a ceiling that is not insulated and has basically the same interior environment as the office area below.

I would suggest that you submit a code change for the 2011 code cycle and see if it is accepted. If you don't like something in the code the only way to fix it is to take an active part in the code making process.

Chris

 

[dcspector]

I would suggest that you submit a code change for the 2011 code cycle and see if it is accepted. If you don't like something in the code the only way to fix it is to take an active part in the code making process.

Chris

Well said Chris and condensate pump cords are the worst. They go unattended for years untill a water issue becomes prevalent. Someone mentioned the pumps are relaced on a regular basis

 

[curious george]

SoCal has thousands and thousands of cords connects to furnances in attics.

Developers run the show out there, and it shows....... Currently building $500K + tract homes, with the '99 code because they have not changed anything structurally. Ridiculous.

 

[lpalmer]

Regarding the code: Good suggestion, I'll do that.

 

[lpalmer]

Good point. However, I believe attics are a different issue. I can't find in Section 400.8 where a cord is not allowed in an attic. Is it concealed by a ceiling, where there is access provided to the equipment? Definition of concealed: Rendered inaccessible by the structure or finish of the building...

 

[lpalmer]

Well said Chris and condensate pump cords are the worst. They go unattended for years untill a water issue becomes prevalent. Someone mentioned the pumps are relaced on a regular basis

When a condensate pump goes out, you will know it by the water stain on the ceiling tile. It does not take long for condensation problems to become evident.

 

[lpalmer]

SoCal has thousands and thousands of cords connects to furnances in attics.

Developers run the show out there, and it shows....... Currently building $500K + tract homes, with the '99 code because they have not changed anything structurally. Ridiculous.

Okay I got the "quote thing" figured out.
Good point. However, I believe attics are a different issue. I can't find in Section 400.8 where a cord is not allowed in an attic. Is it concealed by a ceiling, where there is access provided to the equipment? Definition of concealed: Rendered inaccessible by the structure or finish of the building...

 

[raider1]

SoCal has thousands and thousands of cords connects to furnances in attics.

Developers run the show out there, and it shows....... Currently building $500K + tract homes, with the '99 code because they have not changed anything structurally. Ridiculous.

I am not aware of any furnaces that meet the requirements in 400.7(A) to be connected using flexible cord. A furnace is not design for frequent interchange or readily removed for maintainence. Also the manufactures don't intend or identify a furnace for flexible cord connection.

Well said Chris and condensate pump cords are the worst. They go unattended for years untill a water issue becomes prevalent. Someone mentioned the pumps are relaced on a regular basis

I agree, cords on condensate pumps can deteriorate way before the pump actually fails.

Regarding the code: Good suggestion, I'll do that.

There are many things in the code that I don't agree with or think need to be addressed and I plan on make quite a few code change proposals for the next cycle.

Chris

 

[lpalmer]

I am not aware of any furnaces that meet the requirements in 400.7(A) to be connected using flexible cord. A furnace is not design for frequent interchange or readily removed for maintainence. Also the manufactures don't intend or identify a furnace for flexible cord connection.



I agree, cords on condensate pumps can deteriorate way before the pump actually fails.


There are many things in the code that I don't agree with or think need to be addressed and I plan on make quite a few code change proposals for the next cycle.


Chris

1. The last installation instructions on a furnace I looked at did not go into detail on the wiring supply. Just showed field wiring connection.
I agree a furnace is not frequently interchanged or readily removed for maintainence, neither are cord wired ranges and wall mounted A/C's.

2. I believe this would be a listing problem or concern.

3. This is the one thing I think we all can agree on.

Just another thought: What about having a cord equipped condensate pump in an attic?

 

[raider1]

1. The last installation instructions on a furnace I looked at did not go into detail on the wiring supply. Just showed field wiring connection.
I agree a furnace is not frequently interchanged or readily removed for maintainence, neither are cord wired ranges and wall mounted A/C's.

2. I believe this would be a listing problem or concern.

3. This is the one thing I think we all can agree on.

Just another thought: What about having a cord equipped condensate pump in an attic?

A range is a cord and plug connected appliance that is listed specifically for cord and plug connection. Take a look at 422.16(A) and 422.33(B) for some specific sections dealing with cord and plug connected ranges.

A wall mounted room A/C is specifically permitted to be cord an plug connected in accordance with 440.64.

Yes the problem with the furnace is that it is not desinged and listed for use with flexible cord.

A cord and plug connected condensate pump would be permissible in an accessible attic because the cord would not be concealed by walls, floors or ceilings.

Chris

 

[lpalmer]

A range is a cord and plug connected appliance that is listed specifically for cord and plug connection. Take a look at 422.16(A) and 422.33(B) for some specific sections dealing with cord and plug connected ranges.

A wall mounted room A/C is specifically permitted to be cord an plug connected in accordance with 440.64.

Yes the problem with the furnace is that it is not desinged and listed for use with flexible cord.

A cord and plug connected condensate pump would be permissible in an accessible attic because the cord would not be concealed by walls, floors or ceilings.

Chris

You're right, the code does give specific cord and plug connections for appliances, A/C and refrigeration equipment. Just making a point by comparing some of the similarities between the previously mentioned equipment. Article 424 does not specify cord and plug connections for fixed electric space-heating equipment. However, see Section 424.4, that refers you to Article 440, where the equipment also contains a refrigerant motor compressor. Also see Section 424.10 for special permission.