Correct connection

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SheppardJ

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We have had an interesting situation come up that I'm not sure the proper answer to. A homeowner's dishwasher stopped working. When the repairman came out he found the wire nut had melted. He simply reconnected them with a an orange wire nut and told the client we used the wrong wire nuts. We used red heads. The homeowner, even though done 2 years ago wants reimbursement for the service call of $150. The reimbursement is not the issue. It's weather we a doing things wrong. The wire nuts he used is definitely to small by Ideals specs and a redhead seems to be fine. My building contractor called Ideal and they told him that they do not make anything that meets UL specs for this connection. It's a #12 solid to a #16 stranded?
 
A "redhead"? :? I assume this is a term for a red wire nut? A "redhead" almost always refers to an anti-short bushing for metal cables.

As for the original problem, it sounds like it was a poor connection in the first place due to installer error as opposed to improper connector size.
 
SheppardJ said:
We have had an interesting situation come up that I'm not sure the proper answer to. A homeowner's dishwasher stopped working. When the repairman came out he found the wire nut had melted. He simply reconnected them with a an orange wire nut and told the client we used the wrong wire nuts. We used red heads. The homeowner, even though done 2 years ago wants reimbursement for the service call of $150. The reimbursement is not the issue. It's weather we a doing things wrong. The wire nuts he used is definitely to small by Ideals specs and a redhead seems to be fine. My building contractor called Ideal and they told him that they do not make anything that meets UL specs for this connection. It's a #12 solid to a #16 stranded?
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Whether or not you were actually at fault, something happened with your connection. It might be worth $150 to keep the good will of a customer. Word gets around, and if it fails again it is Somebody Else's Problem.
 
SheppardJ said:
. . . the wire nut had melted.
. . . reconnected them with a an orange wire nut
. . . We used red heads.
. . . The wire nuts he used is definitely too small by Ideals specs and a redhead seems to be fine.
. . . It's a #12 solid to a #16 stranded?
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#16 stranded to #12 solid is always a little problematic. The strands start off the same length as the solid conductor, but the wirenut twisting tends to run them around the #12 which uses up the #16 length, resulting in the end of the #16 strands no longer being at the end of the #12 in the area of greatest compression of the wirenut spring. The result, all to easily innocently arrived at, is the strands are wrapped tightly, initially, to the #12, but loosen with the current heating fluctuations causing the metal to "move" with expansion and contraction.

I find, in my connections, extending the stranded an eighth to a quarter inch beyond the solid allows for maximum bonding under the active compression area of the wirenut spring coil.

I agree with Marky that the Yellow is a better size. . .
 
al hildenbrand said:
#16 stranded to #12 solid is always a little problematic. The strands start off the same length as the solid conductor, but the wirenut twisting tends to run them around the #12 which uses up the #16 length, resulting in the end of the #16 strands no longer being at the end of the #12 in the area of greatest compression of the wirenut spring. The result, all to easily innocently arrived at, is the strands are wrapped tightly, initially, to the #12, but loosen with the current heating fluctuations causing the metal to "move" with expansion and contraction.

I find, in my connections, extending the stranded an eighth to a quarter inch beyond the solid allows for maximum bonding under the active compression area of the wirenut spring coil.

I agree with Marky that the Yellow is a better size. . .
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You can always count on Al for a dissertation on the most minute subject matter.
 
I agree that if it were properly installed, even with proper wire nut being used, there would not have been a problem needing correction.
Let's be thankful that the loss was $150 and not $350,000 and/ or injury or death.
Pay the $150 as goodwill, admit no liability, and put it behind you.
 
peter d said:
You can always count on Al for a dissertation on the most minute subject matter.
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Hey, I appreciate al's dissertation on it. The WHY of something works or doesnt is important to those who are interested in specifics. even in something as seemingly trivial as wire nuts.

hahaha, I agree tans would have been better here. avatar for the win.
 
I would explain to the client that it was a workmanship issue not connector issue. In fact show the client the proper wire nut that can be used and change the orange one that the repair person installed and install the correct one.

Accept the poor workmanship and pay the $150 and they will call you for more work.
 
JFletcher said:
Hey, I appreciate al's dissertation on it. The WHY of something works or doesnt is important to those who are interested in specifics. even in something as seemingly trivial as wire nuts.
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:roll:

I think the vast majority of us who have done electrical work for any length of time have whole stranded/solid in wirenuts thing under control. This is really, really basic stuff here. :thumbsup:
 
peter d said:
:roll:

I think the vast majority of us who have done electrical work for any length of time have whole stranded/solid in wirenuts thing under control. This is really, really basic stuff here. :thumbsup:
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Fair enough. But for the OP, who may have used the wrong size, it is important. Keep in mind many of us have been poorly/wrongly trained. We wouldnt come here if we wanted to continue to do it questionable or wrong.
 
JFletcher said:
Fair enough. But for the OP, who may have used the wrong size, it is important. Keep in mind many of us have been poorly/wrongly trained. We wouldnt come here if we wanted to continue to do it questionable or wrong.
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I get that, but when we start talking about what wire nut to use with what wire combinations, that's getting dangerously close to a DIYer discussion. ;)
 
peter d said:
I get that, but when we start talking about what wire nut to use with what wire combinations, that's getting dangerously close to a DIYer discussion. ;)
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. . . Or a genuine discussion with an electrical apprentice, or an electrical engineer, both of whom are securely within the scope of the Forum Rules. And a genuine discussion with a licensed practicing journeyman (or even master), with many years of on-the-job experience, who chooses expedience and economic politics as the first rule, rather than doing it to the NEC. One who doesn't go get the better wirenut 'cause it will require a walk to the truck, etc.

C'mon Peter, tell us all what MY intent is. . . .
 
Years ago, I posted that all wirenuts weren't the same, and how much better the Tan Twisters were than others. I got called something like a 'snob' or 'elitist' or something of the like.

Well, now the subject is up again, but this time I see my 'snobbery' is shared by others here.

The Ideal red and yellow wingnut types are very soft and I have seen wires come poking out the end with not much effort.

Off brands just don't 'bite' and are more work than they are worth.
 
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