Correction notices

[physis]

Re: Correction notices

You know what Sam, that's ok. I know that because there's so much to do that there simply wasn't time to try to figure out what CMP 2 was talking about so you don't have to put in all the required circuits.

[And the police always put the codes on their paperwork.]

Edit: I'm sorry Charlie, that's what came to me and I couldn't resist.

[ July 02, 2005, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: physis ]

 

[charlie b]

Re: Correction notices

OK Guys and Gals, let?s be nicer with our language. I have edited three posts to replace what I consider to be ?not nice words? with something softer in tone. Since I am a Moderator, I not only get to edit anyone?s post, but I get to decide what is and is not ?not nice.?

[ July 02, 2005, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: charlie b ]

 

[mdshunk]

Re: Correction notices

I think the fact that many guys get so inflamed at not getting code citations would be a good arguement to provide them. Personally, I don't care if I get the citations or not for run of the mill things. I would like the citation for unusual things so that I can educate myself. It seems like it only takes a police officer a few extra minutes to look up the citations to write it on your ticket.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Correction notices

Now that I?m done being the ?language cop,? let me talk about ?real cops.? (I see that mdshunk beat me to this analogy, as it took me a while to type my comments.) Anyone who has received a ticket (and I?m not admitting being among that group) might have noticed that the officer cited the specific law that was alleged to have been violated. That is required by their process because of the processes that follow. The court recorder and the prosecuting attorney and the judge must all be aware of the legal basis of the alleged violation, in order to determine how to disposition the case. As an example, I believe that if you are accused of speeding, and if the officer cited on the ticket the law related to running a red light, the judge might just dismiss the case. A person who really did commit a traffic offence could get off because of a legal technicality.

What I am reading here is that our situation is much, much different. The ?disposition? of the ?case? does not require following a strict, legal process. You cannot ?win a case? against an AHJ on the basis of some minor legal technicality. For example, if the AHJ cites you for an inadequate grounding electrode system, but if the ?red tag? cites the NEC article related to equipment grounding conductors, you don?t get a ?victory? that allows you to leave in place an unsafe condition.

 

[amptech]

Re: Correction notices

If an inspector, code enforcement official or whatever fails an installation he must have a reason in mind for failing it. This official should be required to express this reasoning and validate it with the appropriate code article in a timely manner. I don't expect the official to memorize the code. Around here the same official inspects electrical, plumbing, HVAC, footer/foundation and structural. I don't know anyone who has all of those codes memorized nor would I expect them to. When our county inspector was new he failed a lot of electrical installations on the basis of "what someone once told me". He is a good guy and when it was explained to him in a well-intentioned way that those kinds of reasons wouldn't fly and the legal ramafications the county could suffer could be catastrophic he started looking before leaping with the citations. Usually things can be resolved by asking a few questions and thumbing through the NEC together with the inspector. In 25 years I have only had one situation with an inspector that couldn't be resolved. It was an inspector who after consulting with the utility engineer, 3 other electricians and the State Deputy Inspector who all told her she was in error resorted to the "I am the AHJ in this area and my word is law" response to back up her position. It wound up in court and her county building department lost. What a waste of taxpayer money to maintain an ego.

 

[physis]

Re: Correction notices

Charlie,

I guess we all see it a little different.

But I'm gonna replace your replacement cause I like it less than the one I used.

 

[bphgravity]

Re: Correction notices

I know its not always possible, but a good bit of advice is to be on site when the inspector arrives. In many cases, "quick" fixes or minor issues can be corrected at that time and will avoid an advisory or correction notice.

You also need to get to know your local inspector. Get their phone number and give them yours. Make sure they know you can be reached and counted on to make the needed repairs or corrections. This can save alot of time and effort.

And go to the monthly IAEI meetings. I live in a relatively small community and yet our IAEI meetings will have roughly 15-20 electrical inspectors from 6 jurisdictions present. This is great opportunity to meet your inspectors.

 

[physis]

Re: Correction notices

Good points Bryan. And it might be interesting to go to one of those meeting thingies you're talking about. What are they?

Edit: Never mind, it wasn't hard to find.

International Association of Electrical Inspectors

[ July 02, 2005, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: physis ]

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Correction notices



[ July 02, 2005, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]

 

[allenwayne]

Re: Correction notices

Some inspectors will give a descriptive corrections and actually walk the enire job then list corrections.
The ones i hate is a $30.00 tag tag that says 100 % reinspection required

 

[sfav8r]

Re: Correction notices

I guess it's obvious from my previous post that I'm not particularly worried about getting a code cited. It's just never been an issue for me. But I did find myself wondering something as I read throught this thred.

What would happen if an Inspector said "why did you do "xyz?" and the EC replied, "that's allowed specifically by the NEC." So the Inspector says, "I don't recall ever reading that, what is the section?" I guess the EC could just say, "I don't have the NEC memorized, but I know it's legal, just sign the tag."

 

[stud696981]

Re: Correction notices

-------------------------------------------------
What would happen if an Inspector said "why did you do "xyz?" and the EC replied, "that's allowed specifically by the NEC." So the Inspector says, "I don't recall ever reading that, what is the section?" I guess the EC could just say, "I don't have the NEC memorized, but I know it's legal, just sign the tag."
-------------------------------------------------

Technically, it's not the EC's job to have to recite code numbers, just do the job to code and plans, that is all that is required. However, if an inspector is going to fail a job, then they need to be able to provide a code reference if requested. An inspector needs to be able to back up their authority for failing the job. Keep in mind that if an inspector holds up a job and has no backing, this could lead to a big liability issue. Example, My company wires 50 new houses in a new sub, the inspectors fails each house because he doesn't like my grounding method. I see no reason for his violation and ask him for a reference, he doesn't provide it, I say then that I'm not fixing it, houses don't get sold because no final, guess what some ones going to be paying out some big bucks and it ain't me!

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Correction notices

Originally posted by sfav8r:
It works the other way with inspections too. An Inspector doesn't need to say "wholly Sh**, what were you thinking when you installed that."

It was one of those no-win situations with LV.

 

[stud696981]

Re: Correction notices

One last thing, I think there is a slight misunderstanding as to what is expected. Some people are thinking that we expect an inspector to quote exact code sections and numbers while inspecting the job. I have no problem and I'm sure most other don't either if an inspector went back to the office, looked up the code in question, and provided a reference number in a reasonable amount of time. Once this is done it would back up his or her reasons for failing the job. The real problem that comes up (and probably the reason this post was started) is when an inspector just out right refuses to provide any reference to an actual code and implies it is just how he expects a job to be done.