corrison and oxidation on buss bars

[Riograndeelectric]

I am working on an estimate for a kitchen remodel for 1920s house.
the service to the house was replaced about 15 years or so. found that water had been leaking into the panel for several years and causing oxidation on the busses and neutral along with rust on the load side branch breakers, main breaker and main breaker buss bar ties.

the load center is an outdoor 150AMP main breaker 20-30 space 240V with aluminum busses made by Siemens around 15 + years ago. Siemens has since changed the design of this panel and informed me there is no interior replacement for this panel, any altering of the panel by retro fitting a new interior would void the UL listing.


I informed the GC the panel would need to be replaced and there is not interior replacement available as he had hoped.
I also let the GC know I would not be willing to install new circuits and breakers especially with having to install arc fault breakers to the panel as they would fail over a short period of time

contractor is seeking another electrical opinion as he is not comfortable with my recommendations for replacing the entire panel

how would you as an inspector or engineer handle this situation. what would be your response to the GC to help him to understand why the panel busses could not be cleaned and new branch breakers along with new 150A main breaker with new bus bar ties or retro fitting a new interior be made.

Thanks.
Cameron

 

[kwired]

would you have to fix other code violations, run new service conductors, etc. or just replace the panel? If all you need to do is replace the panel, unless it is installed flush in a masonry wall or something that will make replacement pretty difficult I don't see it as costing a whole lot more than if you were to replace just the interior portion is that were an available option. You went from maybe 2-3 hours job max to about 5-6 max with about same materials cost. Some cases may even have less time involved either way.

 

[Riograndeelectric]

The entire service panel and meter be changed out.

the meter has nothing wrong with it other than it does not comply to Xcel Energy rules.

Xcel energy our utility company now requires meter be equipped with a lever by pass handle.
being as this is an old house the Branch circuits enter the panel in conduits.

4 3/4 on the bottom 2 3/4 out the side and 3/4 conduit out the top.


so now we are installing a complete new service from scratch with new GEC to main water pipe , Ground rod, New service mast
your looking at $500. for just the panel and new meter housing. overall total material cost will be around $1100.00

labor will take 10 hours
so this is not a cheap and easy repair job.

 

[kwired]

Have the AHJ inform them it will not pass inspection if not done properly, and that all the mentioned alternatives are not proper.

If you get the AHJ involved early they will have a harder time getting it done by someone willing to break the rules and/or not file a permit. They may get the other person but he will not get away with the easy way out.

 

[cadpoint]

I frankly don’t understand why the GC is holding you to some other standard, the equipment has had a premature failure. The GC gets a cut on any additional work, granted it might not be in the scope of the original job but stuff happens all the time, and “it is what it is” damaged equipment.

Since the Poco has new rules, first I don’t see how you could get by that, but since the new panel meter combo is required. Secondly, the GC didn’t know that little detail their either are embraced or put off by the simple correct thing to do. Thirdly they are not playing straight ball with the customer and or you!

It sounds like you were brought in at the last minute, oh yeah lets get the electrician in…

I would be interesting to know both how the AHJ and the Poco feel about this situation...

Good Luck!

 

[Riograndeelectric]

I frankly don?t understand why the GC is holding you to some other standard, the equipment has had a premature failure. The GC gets a cut on any additional work, granted it might not be in the scope of the original job but stuff happens all the time, and ?it is what it is? damaged equipment.

Since the Poco has new rules, first I don?t see how you could get by that, but since the new panel meter combo is required. Secondly, the GC did?t know that little detail their either are embraced or put off by the simple correct thing to do. Thirdly they are not playing straight ball with the customer and or you!

It sounds like you were brought in at the last minute, oh yeah lets get the electrician in?

I would be interesting to know both how the AHJ and the Poco feel about this situation...

Good Luck!

according to the GC he has not told the customer mthay need a service change. he does not want to say anything until he gets the second opinion.

I have throughly explained to the GC in the reason the panel needs replacing. the GC looked at the panel with so I could show home the corrosion and condition of the panel. we spent about ten minutes together going over the panel. the manufactours do not make combo meter panel with more than 20 cicuits. so we in colorado have do things the old fashoned way. seperate meter and panel

 

[kwired]

according to the GC he has not told the customer mthay need a service change. he does not want to say anything until he gets the second opinion.

I have throughly explained to the GC in the reason the panel needs replacing. the GC looked at the panel with so I could show home the corrosion and condition of the panel. we spent about ten minutes together going over the panel. the manufactours do not make combo meter panel with more than 20 cicuits. so we in colorado have do things the old fashoned way. seperate meter and panel

Most installations are usually separate meter and panel. If you need main ahead of panel because of how far you are entering building you can get meter with main only, meter with main and 6-8 branch circuits, or separate meter and main. You have to decide what works best for you. Each way has advantages at times.

 

[Riograndeelectric]

this is the reply I recived from the GC regarding the panel issues




Subject: Re: checking in
Cameron-
I am gathering one more opinion on the panel situation. Since it involves a lot of money I don't want to recommend a service change unless I'm convinced the panel has serious issues. I'm not disagreeing with you just yet but would feel better having a second confirmation of the same issue since I've not run into this one before.
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 10:58 AM
Subject: checking in


Dear Mr GC
In talking to the Manufacturer of the existing panel there is not an interior replacement for that panel that is UL listed. The manufacturer has changed the design on this type of panel preventing an interior replacement due to the issues of corrosion and rust it will be necessary to replace the entire panel not just the interior.

Cameron

 

[Little Bill]

Sounds like the GC has already priced the job to the HO and didn't include the price of an upgrade. He is either afraid they won't use him or he thinks he won't make as much. Doesn't sound like he is concerned with the safety of the HO at all.