Cost for a 4000 Amp service in a warehouse

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
I don't see why an engineer is necessary for the electrical. I wouldn't hesitate to design that. I would however want the hvac engineered.

iirc Indiana requires a PE for this scope of work
I assume he'll also need sealed drawings for permitting (and financing?)
and he's going to want cad dwgs for record
a bid package prepared by an engineer may pay for itself

his power bill may exceed $100k \ month

so delivery v is 480/3 and he needs another 1.5 mva 480:120/208 xfmr
he needs an engineer
might be better to take dist mv and supply his own mv:120/208xfmr

unlikely he'll use central clg but rather a bunch of liebert units
208/3 will be fine for those

rather than running cnd/wire to the servers bus duct with plug in taps might be better
 
Last edited:
not many places would issue a permit for something like this without real drawings.

There may be areas that require engineer involvement for a certain size or type of project, but that concept is a bit foreign to me. As an administrator in WA state, I can do a skyscraper if I wanted to. Seattle requires plan review on certain occupancies and anything 400 amps and over. At the state level, they require plan review for institutional and health care occupancies, but in my experience they arent particularly picky about drawings. Seems like everytime I give someone a .DWG file, they ask for a PDF, LOL. In most of NY its mostly wild west, no licensing or permits.

Im not sure I want an electrical contractor who couldnt design build a 2000-4000A service working on my project.
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
There may be areas that require engineer involvement for a certain size or type of project, but that concept is a bit foreign to me. As an administrator in WA state, I can do a skyscraper if I wanted to. Seattle requires plan review on certain occupancies and anything 400 amps and over. At the state level, they require plan review for institutional and health care occupancies, but in my experience they arent particularly picky about drawings. Seems like everytime I give someone a .DWG file, they ask for a PDF, LOL. In most of NY its mostly wild west, no licensing or permits.

Im not sure I want an electrical contractor who couldnt design build a 2000-4000A service working on my project.

I'm not sure I would sole source a 4000 A project
I would have an engineer do bid docs
or negotiate with a epc firm with a PE
There is more to this than elec...hvac, plumbing, etc
I don't care if the ec can design: I want quality and fairness
 

Cow

Senior Member
Location
Eastern Oregon
Occupation
Electrician
Of course, I am not doing it myself, especially installing the switchboard. Once all installation is complete, I will run the cables from sub panels (or breakers) to PDUs on the racks.

Is it legal in Indiana for a "research engineer" to do electrical in a commercial business?

Why aren't you paying an electrical contractor or engineer to design something for you?
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
excerpt from WA law

Apartments, condominiums, and townhouses. Single-family dwellings, duplexes, or multiple-family dwellings up to and including 4 units, generally do not require an architect-of-record. Such buildings DO REQUIRE an architect for the “enclosure” as explained in item #2 below. All other multiple-family buildings, (over 4 units per building) need an engineer or architect of record to prepare ALL submittal drawings, including the site plan and interior plans.



Apartments, condominiums, and townhouses. (Effective August 1, 2005) All new, multi-family buildings, townhouses, attached-single-family dwellings, row-houses, and similar multi-unit residential buildings, including multi-unit apartment buildings and condominiums, that contain MORE THAN two (2) attached dwelling units require a state-licensed architect to stamp and sign all building enclosure design documents (together with a special statement regarding the design) in order to satisfy legislative mandates from Washington State regarding the weatherproofing, waterproofing, and other protections from water or moisture intrusion of the aforementioned buildings.


Design-build construction. The architect’s licensing laws allow “design-build” construction to take place by registered general contractors if the design services are performed by a registered engineer. As defined in the state law, design-build construction is where one single entity, the design-build firm, offers a single contract to someone for both designing and building a project. Thus, the general contractor and the engineer or architect must be co-owners, partners, or employees of the same firm.


Commercial buildings over 4000 s.f. of floor area must have an architect or engineer of record for the entire building. For pre-engineered buildings, an engineer will design the metal building and perhaps the foundation, but that engineer is usually not willing to act as the engineer of record for the entire project. Consequently, they will not stamp any supplemental drawings, such as the site plan or the interior floor plan for improvements inside the building. Required supplemental drawings beyond the pre-engineered building drawings must bear the stamp of the architect or engineer of record for the entire project. Remember, the building code definition of floor area is used to calculate the 4000 s.f., and that definition includes exterior roof-covered areas that are useable space, such as porches, carports, drive-thru’s, etc. It also includes basement areas and attic areas, even if used as storage.


Additions, alterations and remodels to commercial buildings must be stamped by an architect or engineer whenever the existing building is already over 4000 s.f., or when the addition will bring the total s.f. to over 4000. This applies to all additions, including even small additions. All submitted documents must bear the stamp of the engineer or architect in order to ensure that the project has been evaluated in all aspects by the architect or engineer, not just those of the addition itself. This includes the site plan and plans showing the interface between the existing building and the addition. As mentioned above in item #2, someone must act as architect or engineer of record for the entire building
 

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
Welcome to The Forum. I have a question about your install, not about electrical, but on the financial aspect... your power consumption could be $100,000 a month, machinery and equipment, no idea, and Bitcoins seem to be pretty volatile commodity these days... What kind of money would such an operation possibly pull in terms of dollars per month? Are there other cryptocurrencies that these machines can mine, or can they do other things to make money?

Your HVAC load is not going to be negligible with that many machines... forced air cooling is only going to take you so far, possibly a few degrees above ambient. Can the equipment tolerate near 100% relative humidity?

Also, if these are all 120 volt loads, you may have enough harmonics on the neutral that would need to be substantially upsized versus the ungrounded conductors
 

drcampbell

Senior Member
Location
The Motor City, Michigan USA
Occupation
Registered Professional Engineer
High indoor humidity is not a concern. The computers will add heat to the space, but not moisture, and drive the indoor relative humidity down.

When the outdoor temperature is high, necessitating the highest ventilation rates, the outdoor relative humidity will be modest. When the outdoor relative humidity is high, the outdoor temperature (and insolation) will be modest, permitting reduced ventilation rates, which will result in the indoor relative humidity being much lower than outdoors.

Low indoor humidity is probably a concern during winter, spring and fall.
 
Also no HVAC. No HVAC can handle this much heat. Cooling will be with forced air ventilation and I have calculated necessary amount of flow needed.

Sorry to pick nits, but of course air conditioning (cooling) can handle that much heat; data centers do it all the time (and the Las Vegas convention center can cool their exhibit halls from over 100 to 75 in under two hours). Also, fans are the V in HVAC. You will have HVAC.
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
High indoor humidity is not a concern. The computers will add heat to the space, but not moisture, and drive the indoor relative humidity down.

When the outdoor temperature is high, necessitating the highest ventilation rates, the outdoor relative humidity will be modest. When the outdoor relative humidity is high, the outdoor temperature (and insolation) will be modest, permitting reduced ventilation rates, which will result in the indoor relative humidity being much lower than outdoors.

Low indoor humidity is probably a concern during winter, spring and fall.

the dewpoint will remain constant
on a hot day in IN the dewpoint will be higher
as temp drops you lower moisture by condensing
that is why mech clg in important
I'll have to look at a psych chart
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
700 rigs x 1200 W/rig divided by 208VAC ~ 4000 Amps.
The rigs would need to be fed with 208-240 V. 480VAC is what will be provided by energy company that I will need to get stepped down.

These are not just computers but mining rigs. Every single rig will pull actual 1200W 24x7 (not just rated at). So those 700 rigs would easily eat up close to 4000 Amps.
Also no HVAC. No HVAC can handle this much heat. Cooling will be with forced air ventilation and I have calculated necessary amount of flow needed. I already have a smaller setup with 40 rigs running for last 5 months without any HVAC and maintaining temps in Indiana summer with 94F Amb temps.

My biggest concern is getting the MDP and cost for it (Just having a MDP from where I could feed the racks myself)

what is the bldg vol
how much airflow on a 90 F day to lower temp to 80?

much, much larger data centers use mech cooling
doing one now, an underground expansion adding 6 x 400 tons
and they are underground! natural ambient 55-60

you will need huge fans and massive air vel
maybe similar hp to cooling
no one uses oa to cool data centers
 

drcampbell

Senior Member
Location
The Motor City, Michigan USA
Occupation
Registered Professional Engineer
... as temp drops you lower moisture by condensing
that is why mech clg in important ...
The Original Poster is proposing building a data center without any mechanical cooling, just fans bringing in outside air. Since the outside air will never be cooled, there will never be any condensation.

Unlike comfort air conditioning, in spaces where people exhale, wash and cook, there's no moisture to be removed in a data center. In fact, it's common to need to add moisture to keep the humidity up to a reasonable level.

To conserve energy and water, data-center HVAC often doesn't reduce the air temperature below the dew point. While comfort air conditioning usually cools the air to ~40°F (5°C) in order to remove moisture, data-center HVAC often cools the air to only ~60°F. (15°C)
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
The Original Poster is proposing building a data center without any mechanical cooling, just fans bringing in outside air. Since the outside air will never be cooled, there will never be any condensation.

Unlike comfort air conditioning, in spaces where people exhale, wash and cook, there's no moisture to be removed in a data center. In fact, it's common to need to add moisture to keep the humidity up to a reasonable level.

To conserve energy and water, data-center HVAC often doesn't reduce the air temperature below the dew point. While comfort air conditioning usually cools the air to ~40°F (5°C) in order to remove moisture, data-center HVAC often cools the air to only ~60°F. (15°C)

not true
if raining and rh is 100 it will condense and cause corrosion

the reason they add moisture is because they condense it out via cooling
data centers cool < dewpoint
at least iron mountain, mellon, progressive, upmc, etc
they do it to control to dewpoint not rh

he will never remove 1 mw on an 80 deg day with vent only
the temp will rise and exceed 100 easily
even with clg the ac's may be close to 20/hr
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I can't imagine anyone qualified to do so designing something of this scale using only ventilation for cooling.

Having said that there are some interesting ways to reduce your ongoing expense for cooling. Some computers can be purchased with water cooling that reduces the amount of ventilation required. Same amount of cooling but it uses mostly water instead of air. A lot of the heat can be dissipated with a cooling tower that way which in some climates is pretty cost effective. But this is not a design for amateurs.
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
chilled water is the way to go, 45-50 deg
chiller w/towers
pumped to local fan coil units with small fans
liebert units or similar

assume
oa temp 70
inside desired 80
1 mw
cfm = 3.4 mil btu /(1.08 x 10) = 320000 cfm

fan hp ~ cfm x p "wc / (6350 x eff)
= 320000 x 8 / (6350 x 0.6) = 500 hp
eff may be a higher but you will have duct losses
500 hp ~ 470 kva ~ 1/2 Mva
perhaps higher depending on air filtration filter losses

cooling with fans about the same kva, the advantage being the refrig cycle
plus you get dehumid, less air filter losses, and can cool if oa temp is 90

that is why it is not done in this application
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top