counter recepticles

Status
Not open for further replies.
A

Al Ewaldt

Member
Is there or will there be any code changes proposed to have counter recepticles installed with the ground up in the 2008 nec. code?
 
I hope it continues to get rejected, or better yet I hope nobody suggests it again. I would not want that (up or down) to become a code requirement.
 
Here are two examples, however there are at least 4 others for the 2008 NEC alone:

18-19a Log #2197 NEC-P18 Final Action: Reject
(406.4(D)(1))
________________________________________________________________
Submitter: P. Bruce King, Stanley Consultants Inc.
Recommendation: Revise as follows:
(1) 2-pole, 3-wire, and 3-pole, 4-wire grounding, blade type receptacles shall
have the ground pin oriented on the top for vertical installations, and to the left
hand side for horizontal installations.
Substantiation: Reduce potential for fire in all types of buildings by reducing
or eliminating the possibility of objects falling onto the current carrying
conductor and grounded conductor, which could arc, thereby igniting
surrounding materials. The problem has been specifically identified in hospital
and residential settings.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: See panel action and statement on Proposal 18-21.
Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 10 Negative: 2
Explanation of Negative:
COSTELLO, P.: As this proposal continues to reappear there seems to be real
concern as to the direction the code would prefer for a safe installation. A Fine
Print Note would serve as a guide for most installations. With direction for the
safest use based on the outlets intended use, with general purpose outlets
configured with the ground, or grounded conductor in the up position unless
the stationary equipment served would be best served with a different
configuration based on the cord set and other location consideration.
WELLS, J.: I believe the substantiation, particularly that in Proposal 18-23, is
compelling. Our company, believing that where alternative installation choices
are available the safer alternative is preferred, stamped ?TOP? on some of our
receptacles oriented such that the ground was up. Where installers chose to
install it ground down, some inspectors, citing Section 110.3(B) forced the
contractors to rewire the receptacles with ground up. Regrettably, we were
forced to remove the marking.

18-21 Log #119 NEC-P18 Final Action: Reject
(406.4(G) (New) )
________________________________________________________________
Submitter: Gary Mayer, Jackson, MI
Recommendation: This is my proposal for the safe wiring and installation of
the standard 120 volt receptacle. Including Ground fault interrupter. I propose
that when installing the receptacle it be mounted with the ground terminal to be
in the up or top position. I have done it this way for many years now.
Substantiation: If a dead front plug is plugged into the receptacle that has a
heavy cord attached to it the weight of the cord will pull the plug down as
shown in photo #1 (if the receptacle is installed with the ground terminal in the
down position). When this happens, both terminals are exposed. In an industrial
or residential setting, this could lead to a dangerous situation. Someone could
accidentally come into contact with the energized side of the plug.
In photo #2, the same plug is in the receptacle, however the receptacle has
been changed to the ground in the up or top position. Now, even with the
weight of the cord pulling down it actually forces the terminals into the
receptacle. Now, there is no chance of anyone accidentially coming in contact
with the energized terminals.
I have seen may 220 volt dryer plugs wired with the ground terminal in the
down position and this is even more dangerous than the 120 volt receptacle.
The same as above also stands for the 220 volt receptacle. It should always be
installed with the ground terminal in the up or top position.
With that I will close. In the large scope of things it may seem quite small,
but I think it is something that has been overlooked for many years now and it
needs to be addressed. It may save someone from a painful shock, or worse. I
hope you will consider this suggestion and include it in the NEC.
Note: Supporting material is available for review at NFPA Headquarters.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: This proposal does not comply with the Regulations
Governing Committee Projects, Section 4-3.3, in that it does not contain
recommended text. See www.nfpa.org.
The panel rejects the proposal that receptacles should be mounted with the
grounding contact in the up position for vertical installations or the grounded
circuit conductor slot in the up position for horizontal installations. The panel
has consistently rejected similar proposals and there is no ensurance that the
orientation of the receptacle will prevent the type of accident described in the
recommendation. The orientation of the grounding contact on the receptacle is
installation specific.
Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 10 Negative: 2
Explanation of Negative:
COSTELLO, P.: As this proposal continues to reappear there seems to be real
concern as to the direction the code would prefer for a safe installation. A FPN
would serve as a guide for most installations. With direction for the safest use
based on the outlets intended use, with general purpose outlets configured with
the ground, or grounded conductor in the up position unless the stationary
equipment served would be best served with a different configuration based on
the cord set and other location consideration.
WELLS, J.: I believe the substantiation, particularly that in Proposal 18-23, is
compelling. Our company, believing that where alternative installation choices
are available the safer alternative is preferred, stamped ?TOP? on some of our
receptacles oriented such that the ground was up. Where installers chose to
install it ground down, some inspectors, citing Section 110.3(B) forced the
contractors to rewire the receptacles with ground up. Regrettably, we were
forced to remove the marking.
Click to expand...
________________________________________________________________
 
j_erickson said:
Why do people keep submitting this proposal? Can't they find another way to save the world?
Click to expand...

That's the problem - they haven't realized they simply can't save the world.
 
I just wish to thank all that replied-even you neggies-I have an AHJ who wants this and I wanted to find out if he had any proper ground to require it. I myself could not find anything on it in the code. I also know that it is brought up and rejected regularly!
 
stickboy1375 said:
I hate it when I drop something down the wall and it shorts out... :roll:
Click to expand...

i have only seen this twice in my career, both times it was a christmas decoration that fell and shorted the prongs and burnt up. ground up or down would not have made a difference since it was a 2 prong plug.
 
stickboy1375 said:
Thats why I don't understand ground up or down... most cords are only 2 prongs
Click to expand...
however i do agree with the ground up and neutral up concept, my work is mostly hospitals and heavy industrial and that has always been the golden rule. so i understand the why's, what i don't understand is why there are so many apposed to it.
 
dominic42 said:
what i don't understand is why there are so many apposed to it.
Click to expand...


Basically because it's dumb either way... This is the way I look at it, however you were taught when you started the trade is basically the ONLY correct way to do it! :)
 
Last edited:
I have only seen this happen once, and it was 3 times in one week at a restraunt. The fryers have alluminum bumpers on the back and the 480 volt receptacles we set at the perfect height to make it possible. Long story short, the cook slides the fryer around and boom, then boom and again boom.
 
Dominic.
however i do agree with the ground up and neutral up concept, my work is mostly hospitals and heavy industrial and that has always been the golden rule.
Click to expand...
That must be a local thing as that in not the case in my area. As far as the resistance, given that there are few 3 wire cords in applications other than those you named, there is no real safety difference and ground up just looks ugly (IMO).
Ground down is a "left over" from the knob and tube days when the neutral conductor slot was almost always on the left side as you looked at the installed recptacle.
Don
 
It is my belief that for every “compelling” reason that can be proposed to support the “ground up for safety” stance, there is an equally “compelling” reason that can be proposed to support the “ground down for safety” stance. But here is the “real truth” of the matter (and it is the real truth of other matters, as a matter of fact):

There is a great tendency for anyone who is convinced of the correctness of his or her interpretation to be equally convinced that no other interpretation can be reasonably supported. (Famous saying by some famous guy)
Click to expand...
 
stickboy1375 said:
Basically because it's dumb either way... This is the way I look at it, however you were taught when you started the trade is basically the ONLY correct way to do it! :)
Click to expand...

No Comment!
 
Dominic, I think you just proved the point.:D

The way each of us is used to doing it is the only correct way to do it in each of our own minds.

You go grounds up and obviously feel grounds down is wrong.

It's a just a choice, no more important then what color the outlet is.

FWIW I install grounds up or down depending on the situation. :cool:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top