Countertop in kitchen pantry

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LarryFine said:
I agree that a wall receptacle is not required in a pantry, regardless of there being a counter-top.
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I'm looking @ that picture (counter top) in the pantry, and having difficult time picturing that as "work surface".. 210.52 (C)

Granted it possibly is (12 inches or wider).. and also pantry..
 
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RWC/NC. said:
I'm looking @ that picture (counter top) in the pantry, and having difficult time picturing that as "work surface".. 210.52 (C)
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So, I think it depends on the depth (perpendicular to the rear wall) of the cabinet top vs the shelves. Which is hard to tell from the photo.

If they are the same depth, I would happily argue it's not a work surface or countertop, just a shelf that has enclosed storage underneath it.

But if the shelves are say 12" deep and the cabinet top is say 18" deep, then I'd say it's a work surface.

Cheers, Wayne
 
wwhitney said:
So, I think it depends on the depth (perpendicular to the rear wall) of the cabinet top vs the shelves. Which is hard to tell from the photo.

If they are the same depth, I would happily argue it's not a work surface or countertop, just a shelf that has enclosed storage underneath it.

But if the shelves are say 12" deep and the cabinet top is say 18" deep, then I'd say it's a work surface.

Cheers, Wayne
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It's full depth counter - 25 inches
 
Those points are basically superseded by the customer's desire for it.

As long as the customer agrees to the cost of their last-minute decision.
 
retirede said:
I was responding to post 16, which implies that if there is NO countertop, wall receptacles are required.
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If there is wall space over 2 ft then it is required, the absence of or having the portable counter as one suggested, with the resulting wall space as it would appear by simply making the cabinet portable, then would require a wall receptacle. If all the spaces having built in but not countertop space it would be exempt from wall receptacle.
 
Fred B said:
If there is wall space over 2 ft then it is required, the absence of or having the portable counter as one suggested, with the resulting wall space as it would appear by simply making the cabinet portable, then would require a wall receptacle. If all the spaces having built in but not countertop space it would be exempt from wall receptacle.
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How do you get that???
 
AC\DC said:
How do you get that???
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210.52(A)(2)(1) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall include the following:
(1) Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by doorways and similar openings, fireplaces, and fixed cabinets that do not have countertops or similar work surfaces.

210.52(B)(1)Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A) all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.
 
Who in the world would want blue cabinets in a new kitchen. Every time my kitchen remodeler puts these in, I just think to myself how I am such a dinosaur. My wife thinks they are really pretty. To each his own. Just think, in this situation you, the drywall and the painter and the clean up guy all make extra money for a headache you didn't want.
 
Fred B said:
210.52(A)(2)(1) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall include the following:
(1) Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by doorways and similar openings, fireplaces, and fixed cabinets that do not have countertops or similar work surfaces.

210.52(B)(1)Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A) all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.
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You need to back up, and you have an unwarranted overlap.

Before wall space, there's a general provision for which tells the rooms where receptacles are required to be spaced with no point farther than 6 ft from receptacle. Pantry isn't mentioned. Look at the list. It's generally occupied areas. Nobody goes into a pantry to hang out. No inkling of required receptacles there

Then you're jumping to small appliance circuits, where pantry is mentioned, and conflating the twoScreenshot_20220819-204821_Chrome.jpgScreenshot_20220819-204952_Chrome.jpg
 
ptonsparky said:
PP place for a coffee pot. Maybe for a roaster used once or twice a year, but not for something used frequently.

Charge $$$$
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I had to add a receptacle to pantry for the wife somewhat recently. She doesn't want the coffee machine sitting on the kitchen counter, just doesn't look good, I guess? I will add before doing this she used to get the coffee machine out of the pantry and made coffee on kitchen counter then put the thing back in the pantry.
 
Per 2017 NEC:

All receptacles in kitchen, dining room, pantry, breakfast room, and similar areas must be supplied by two or more SABC's. 210.52(B)(1). This does not include dedicated outlets to certain appliances, those inside cabinets or above 5.5 feet off the floor.

(B)(3) says two SABCs must serve the kitchen countertops, also says these circuits can supply outlets in the other areas mentioned in (B)(1).


(C) is for counter tops and mentions the other rooms and not just the kitchen counters when it comes to where receptacles are required.

Note that 210.8 requires GFCI protection for the kitchen counters but not for the other rooms. Those other rooms would only require GFCI if within 6 feet of a sink for the most part.

210.12 for AFCI protection doesn't specifically mention pantries, though many AHJ's probably will still require it based on the "similar rooms or areas" wording that is there.
 
kwired said:
210.12 for AFCI protection doesn't specifically mention pantries, though many AHJ's probably will still require it based on the "similar rooms or areas" wording that is there.
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So (2017) 210.12 on AFCI refers to "kitchens, family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, laundry areas, or similar rooms or areas"

And (2017) 210.52(A) on wall space receptacles refers to "kitchen, family room, dining room, living room, parlor, library, den, sunroom, bedroom,
recreation room, or similar room or area"

The difference is the omission of "closets, hallways, laundry areas" from 210.52(A). So if a "pantry" is a similar area for 210.12 purposes, is a "pantry" a similar area for 210.52(A) purposes? I.e. is the pantry similar to a "kitchen" (wall space receptacles required) or similar to a "closet, hallway, laundry area" (wall space receptacles not required)?

Cheers, Wayne

P.S. This reminds me that since the 2017 NEC, wall space receptacles in kitchens have been required along walls with countertops, which receptacles must be in addition to the countertop receptacles. Something everyone overlooks and probably wasn't intended.
 
wwhitney said:
So (2017) 210.12 on AFCI refers to "kitchens, family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, laundry areas, or similar rooms or areas"

And (2017) 210.52(A) on wall space receptacles refers to "kitchen, family room, dining room, living room, parlor, library, den, sunroom, bedroom,
recreation room, or similar room or area"

The difference is the omission of "closets, hallways, laundry areas" from 210.52(A). So if a "pantry" is a similar area for 210.12 purposes, is a "pantry" a similar area for 210.52(A) purposes? I.e. is the pantry similar to a "kitchen" (wall space receptacles required) or similar to a "closet, hallway, laundry area" (wall space receptacles not required)?

Cheers, Wayne

P.S. This reminds me that since the 2017 NEC, wall space receptacles in kitchens have been required along walls with countertops, which receptacles must be in addition to the countertop receptacles. Something everyone overlooks and probably wasn't intended.
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In my mind, a pantry is equivalent to a closet. A small room primarily used for storage. A pantry is a food closet!
 
retirede said:
In my mind, a pantry is equivalent to a closet. A small room primarily used for storage. A pantry is a food closet!
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That was once true. Lately I been seeing ones as large as bedrooms once used to be in many old houses. They have cupboards, counters, additional fridge or freezer in them, maybe even a wash or utility sink of some sort.
 
kwired said:
If it has both a sink and an oven, that is pushing pretty hard for NEC to call it a second kitchen.
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They call them a "Butler's kitchen" here. I just did a house that had a large pantry with counter tops. Didn't have a stove but had a MW and wine cooler. Had pantry on the plans.
 
Little Bill said:
They call them a "Butler's kitchen" here. I just did a house that had a large pantry with counter tops. Didn't have a stove but had a MW and wine cooler. Had pantry on the plans.
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If it has sink and permanent provisions for food preparation and cooking NEC calls it a kitchen regardless of what some designer calls it on the plan. And 210.52(B)(3) indicates that a SABC can not serve more than one kitchen, though it can serve outlets in a kitchen as well as outlets in dining room, pantry, breakfast room, etc.
 
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