ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: court
Charlie: Your message has been recieved and is well understood. I thank you.
Charlie: Your message has been recieved and is well understood. I thank you.
court
- Thread starter ryan_618
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Re: court
Ryan, I assume you work for a government of some kind as an inspector. If so you need the help of your city, county or whatever branch of government you work for, attorney. Most governments have laws which grant the government immunity from these kind of lawsuits. Here in Wyoming its the Governmental Claims Act. Don't go to court alone, get some legal advice.
Ryan, I assume you work for a government of some kind as an inspector. If so you need the help of your city, county or whatever branch of government you work for, attorney. Most governments have laws which grant the government immunity from these kind of lawsuits. Here in Wyoming its the Governmental Claims Act. Don't go to court alone, get some legal advice.
B
bthielen
Guest
Re: court
I'm no attorney but isn't our court system bound by the facts of law and not conjecture or feeling? If this is true and the court that hears your case is following this ideal, then I wonder, assuming you have accurately interpreted the code as it is written and the codes you sighted are the law in the area in question, how do they believe they even have a case? I'm surprised their attorney is even pursuing this, unless there is some legal loophole that has been found. Wouldn't it be more likely that the manufacturer of the GFCI could be held liable if their device malfunctioned or the contractor that installed the system? It sounds like their attorney believes he/she has found where you may have been negligent in some way. As an inspector are you liable for wiring mistakes? For example, a wirenut isn't quite tightened down enough and over time the connection begins to arc and cause a fire. Is the inspector responsible for this? I personally don't think they have a leg to stand on! A component failed or did its job as required. These things happen. Perhaps there is a short circuit condition in the unit and a fire was averted! I wonder which they would prefer??
Best of luck,
Bob
I'm no attorney but isn't our court system bound by the facts of law and not conjecture or feeling? If this is true and the court that hears your case is following this ideal, then I wonder, assuming you have accurately interpreted the code as it is written and the codes you sighted are the law in the area in question, how do they believe they even have a case? I'm surprised their attorney is even pursuing this, unless there is some legal loophole that has been found. Wouldn't it be more likely that the manufacturer of the GFCI could be held liable if their device malfunctioned or the contractor that installed the system? It sounds like their attorney believes he/she has found where you may have been negligent in some way. As an inspector are you liable for wiring mistakes? For example, a wirenut isn't quite tightened down enough and over time the connection begins to arc and cause a fire. Is the inspector responsible for this? I personally don't think they have a leg to stand on! A component failed or did its job as required. These things happen. Perhaps there is a short circuit condition in the unit and a fire was averted! I wonder which they would prefer??
Best of luck,
Bob
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: court
Charlie Beck is absolutely correct! Our underground engineering supervisor went to court several years ago to defend IPL from charges that our electricity was faulty and started a fire that destroyed a building. He was very cocky and knew what he was doing. He was well educated and knew the downtown network like the back of his hand.
Our company attorney recommended we hire a trial lawyer to prepare him but he refused. It seems he was sure of himself and he didn't have the time to spare.
Our company paid for 1/2 of that building because the opposing attorney knew the NESC better than he did. He was tied up in knots and painted into a corner before he knew what happened. Truth had nothing to do with it.
Charlie Beck is absolutely correct! Our underground engineering supervisor went to court several years ago to defend IPL from charges that our electricity was faulty and started a fire that destroyed a building. He was very cocky and knew what he was doing. He was well educated and knew the downtown network like the back of his hand.
Our company attorney recommended we hire a trial lawyer to prepare him but he refused. It seems he was sure of himself and he didn't have the time to spare.
Our company paid for 1/2 of that building because the opposing attorney knew the NESC better than he did. He was tied up in knots and painted into a corner before he knew what happened. Truth had nothing to do with it.
tonyi
Senior Member
Re: court
We've all been zeroing in on the electrical aspects of this, but there's another that could be a real clincher in causing some doubt in a jury/judge's mind.
Could it simply have been sabotage by a disgruntled employee? If this was a readily accessible GFCI receptical, its real easy for a PO'd employee to just hit the test button and kill the unit.
If discovery isn't closed yet, have your counsel request all records of disciplinary actions, firings, etc from this place a coupls of months prior to and after the incident.
Such a request might just make this case evaporate
We've all been zeroing in on the electrical aspects of this, but there's another that could be a real clincher in causing some doubt in a jury/judge's mind.
Could it simply have been sabotage by a disgruntled employee? If this was a readily accessible GFCI receptical, its real easy for a PO'd employee to just hit the test button and kill the unit.
If discovery isn't closed yet, have your counsel request all records of disciplinary actions, firings, etc from this place a coupls of months prior to and after the incident.
Such a request might just make this case evaporate
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: court
Good luck!
So did Marcia Clark.
Good luck!
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: court
I see one thing everyone has missed.Had your city not adopted this version of NEC they would not be in court.What liability does a city take when it forces a code that it itself did voluntary.In no way did Ryan do anything wrong.But his city just might lose.
I see one thing everyone has missed.Had your city not adopted this version of NEC they would not be in court.What liability does a city take when it forces a code that it itself did voluntary.In no way did Ryan do anything wrong.But his city just might lose.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: court
Jim: Are you telling me that if the city posts a forty mile an hour speed limit and I get a speeding ticket, I can sue them because they made the law? :roll:
Jim: Are you telling me that if the city posts a forty mile an hour speed limit and I get a speeding ticket, I can sue them because they made the law? :roll:
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: court
Ryan, once you are incarcerated for enforcing the rules I will send you forum updates.
Ryan, once you are incarcerated for enforcing the rules I will send you forum updates.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: court
If your over 40 yes you get a ticket.
Maybe i worded this wrong.What im saying is your city had a choice to adopt NEC or not.They have some liability in the since that in doing so is what forced you to enforce the gfci.Should they when NO ,will they win MAYBE.
If your over 40 yes you get a ticket.
Maybe i worded this wrong.What im saying is your city had a choice to adopt NEC or not.They have some liability in the since that in doing so is what forced you to enforce the gfci.Should they when NO ,will they win MAYBE.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: court
This is what we should all be afraid of. Lets hope Jim is not on the Jury and common sense prevails. :roll:
This is what we should all be afraid of. Lets hope Jim is not on the Jury and common sense prevails. :roll:
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: court
Scott if you can read ,i said they shouldn't win.I do understand that Ryan did his job correctly and the city adopted the code to promote safety.Now what a jury is led to think is what lawyers get big bucks for.Do hope we hear the outcome.
Scott if you can read ,i said they shouldn't win.I do understand that Ryan did his job correctly and the city adopted the code to promote safety.Now what a jury is led to think is what lawyers get big bucks for.Do hope we hear the outcome.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: court
Do hope we hear the outcome. [/QUOTE] I will see to it that you are all informed of the outcome, should this indeed go to court. At the present moment, it appears that it will. I think that we can all learn from this (although none more than me), and therefore I be certain to let you guys know all that I am allowed to.
Thank you Jim.
Do hope we hear the outcome. [/QUOTE] I will see to it that you are all informed of the outcome, should this indeed go to court. At the present moment, it appears that it will. I think that we can all learn from this (although none more than me), and therefore I be certain to let you guys know all that I am allowed to.
Re: court
Now I suppose the electrical inspectors also must be designers too. What the heck are the consultants for?? Aren't they the ones given the responsibility to design and draw up the specifications, that also would comply with the local code in affect, that the electrician would use to install the electrical distribution system, also per code. When the electricians are doing their rough and finishing work how are they to know where the different equipment is going to be plugged in? And, was the final inspection done before of after the equipment was installed. If so was it the inspector's responsibility to double check the consultants specifications by moving the refrigeration appliances in order to see if they were plugged into a circuit protected with GFCI or a GFCI outlet?
Come on now, it looks as if the electrical inspector is being targeted unfairly.
Now I suppose the electrical inspectors also must be designers too. What the heck are the consultants for?? Aren't they the ones given the responsibility to design and draw up the specifications, that also would comply with the local code in affect, that the electrician would use to install the electrical distribution system, also per code. When the electricians are doing their rough and finishing work how are they to know where the different equipment is going to be plugged in? And, was the final inspection done before of after the equipment was installed. If so was it the inspector's responsibility to double check the consultants specifications by moving the refrigeration appliances in order to see if they were plugged into a circuit protected with GFCI or a GFCI outlet?
Come on now, it looks as if the electrical inspector is being targeted unfairly.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: court
Ryan
The ROP and ROC are very good information on this and you should try to get your hands on the parts that are pertinent if you already do not have them. Maybe Joe Tedesco can email them to you.
Good Luck and print out Charlie's post and read it the night before court.
Pierre
Ryan
The ROP and ROC are very good information on this and you should try to get your hands on the parts that are pertinent if you already do not have them. Maybe Joe Tedesco can email them to you.
Good Luck and print out Charlie's post and read it the night before court.
Pierre
tony_psuee
Senior Member
- Location
- PA/MD
Re: court
Jumping in with my 2c worth-
Ryan it would be interesting to know who all is being sued by the restaurant for damages. It could well be they are suing everyone, inspector, contractor, fridge manufacturer, consultant, etc. hoping that enough of them are willing to offer a settlement out of court rather than bear the expense of a trial. It doesn't matter who/what is responsible, what matters is who has the money. This is the unfortunate state of our legal system, IMO.
Tony
Jumping in with my 2c worth-
Ryan it would be interesting to know who all is being sued by the restaurant for damages. It could well be they are suing everyone, inspector, contractor, fridge manufacturer, consultant, etc. hoping that enough of them are willing to offer a settlement out of court rather than bear the expense of a trial. It doesn't matter who/what is responsible, what matters is who has the money. This is the unfortunate state of our legal system, IMO.
Tony
Re: court
I've sat on several juries during my time, both criminal and civil. In my state (Georgia) criminal charges must be proven beyond a resonable doubt to get conviction. Civil is another matter. The "preponderance" of the evidence is all that is required to win a civil suit. Believe me, you never know what is going to happen in a civil trial. Between the "slick" attorneys and the un-informed jurors, maybe that Zebra did in fact have spots. My point is, don't assume anything.
steve
I've sat on several juries during my time, both criminal and civil. In my state (Georgia) criminal charges must be proven beyond a resonable doubt to get conviction. Civil is another matter. The "preponderance" of the evidence is all that is required to win a civil suit. Believe me, you never know what is going to happen in a civil trial. Between the "slick" attorneys and the un-informed jurors, maybe that Zebra did in fact have spots. My point is, don't assume anything.
steve
macmikeman
Senior Member
- Location
- Planet macmikeman
Re: court
Ryan, since you are a defendant in this case you can possibly use that status to call the plaintiff's up to the bench for cross examination. Bring in a small metalic refrigerator that you have jury rigged to ensure a 120 volt ground fault to the frame of the equipment. Next disconect the ground at the refrigerator. Also bring in a three prong toaster to the courtroom. Plug both items into the courtroom 120 supply and ask the plaintiff under oath to place one hand on each of the two appliances at the same time. Perhaps the judge and the jury members also could get the "feel" of the situation. If you could pull this off you are going to win the case.
Ryan, since you are a defendant in this case you can possibly use that status to call the plaintiff's up to the bench for cross examination. Bring in a small metalic refrigerator that you have jury rigged to ensure a 120 volt ground fault to the frame of the equipment. Next disconect the ground at the refrigerator. Also bring in a three prong toaster to the courtroom. Plug both items into the courtroom 120 supply and ask the plaintiff under oath to place one hand on each of the two appliances at the same time. Perhaps the judge and the jury members also could get the "feel" of the situation. If you could pull this off you are going to win the case.
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
Re: court
This is more a "legal" than a "code" issue, with a little "design" thrown in as well.
Was the 2002 applicable at the time the plans were approved- or did you go beyond the adopted requirements?
Personally, you are immune (see Malfeasance).
"The law is an *** ." Engineers think 'more is better.' Anyone in the trade can relate problems when GFCI's are connected to refrigerators, compressors, dishwashers, sump pumps, etc.
If it makes you feel better, the new UL tests for GFCI's (applicable to all new manufactured GFCI's) aresupposed to ensure a greater resistance to such nuisance trippings.
How large can a 20a/120v. fridge be? Was there actual spoilage- or was "spoilage" defined by what the chart recorder said? My home fridge, when full, can maintain its' tempfor quite a while.
Tech solution: hard wire the fridge. Sure, you'll need a disconnect; 400.7 would allow you to use a flexible (SO) cord. That way, there is no "receptacle," only an "outlet."
This is more a "legal" than a "code" issue, with a little "design" thrown in as well.
Was the 2002 applicable at the time the plans were approved- or did you go beyond the adopted requirements?
Personally, you are immune (see Malfeasance).
"The law is an *** ." Engineers think 'more is better.' Anyone in the trade can relate problems when GFCI's are connected to refrigerators, compressors, dishwashers, sump pumps, etc.
If it makes you feel better, the new UL tests for GFCI's (applicable to all new manufactured GFCI's) aresupposed to ensure a greater resistance to such nuisance trippings.
How large can a 20a/120v. fridge be? Was there actual spoilage- or was "spoilage" defined by what the chart recorder said? My home fridge, when full, can maintain its' tempfor quite a while.
Tech solution: hard wire the fridge. Sure, you'll need a disconnect; 400.7 would allow you to use a flexible (SO) cord. That way, there is no "receptacle," only an "outlet."
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: court
Ryan what exactly are they asking you to do?
Your part should begin with why you enforced the code.You simply read the code that applies and state that you enforced it.Beyond that it would not be proper for you make any calls on it being a good code or bad.They need to hire a electrical engineer to give that kind of testimonies.
Had you not enforced it and someone got hurt,then your job might be at risk as well as criminal charges.There beef (no pun intended) is with underwriters not you.Perhaps they will eliminate the gfci requirement in 05.Are they being sued as well ?
Ryan what exactly are they asking you to do?
Your part should begin with why you enforced the code.You simply read the code that applies and state that you enforced it.Beyond that it would not be proper for you make any calls on it being a good code or bad.They need to hire a electrical engineer to give that kind of testimonies.
Had you not enforced it and someone got hurt,then your job might be at risk as well as criminal charges.There beef (no pun intended) is with underwriters not you.Perhaps they will eliminate the gfci requirement in 05.Are they being sued as well ?
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