Crawlspace Wall Dilemma

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So that said I don't see permission in a crawl space to run any size cable under the joists or even run through bored holes if the cable will be exposed.
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300.4 (A) (1) In both exposed and concealed locations etc.
334.17 Through or Parallel to Framing members refers back to 300.4

Did I finally catch Bob in missing something?;)
 
dlhoule said:
iwire said:
So that said I don't see permission in a crawl space to run any size cable under the joists or even run through bored holes if the cable will be exposed.
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300.4 (A) (1) In both exposed and concealed locations etc.
334.17 Through or Parallel to Framing members refers back to 300.4

Did I finally catch Bob in missing something?;)
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No, I don't think so. I noticed what you bolded too, and then quietly waited for someone else to bite. :D

The problem is, "or run through bored holes" is not an option presented in 334.15(A). So, we're left with what's required of us: closely following the building finish, or using running boards.

Now, 334.15(C) states that "Smaller cables shall be run either through bored holes in joists or on running boards." In our minds, we give these two options even footing, but according to the layout of this section, this only applies to unfinished basements.

The references to 300.4 only define protection requirements for cables that have been installed in situations; it does not explicitly permit the situations themselves. 300.4 provides us with rules for installing cables through wood members. It doesn't say when it's appropriate, or allowed, or prohibited. 300.4 is a second or third step from such a rule. It kicks in when you've already determined that doing so is acceptable.

All that said, I can't imagine an AHJ in the world tagging a cable run through a floor joist in a crawlspace. I would classify 300.15(A) as having an "accidental omission." :)
 
georgestolz said:
I would classify 300.15(A) as having an "accidental omission." :)
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I'll buy that.:)

Larry I had missed your post until I read George's response.

George pretty much said what I would have.

300.1 Scope.
(A) All Wiring Installations. This article covers wiring methods for all wiring installations unless modified by other articles.
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georgestolz said:
Bob - I stand corrected on the clips. I was picturing one-hole EMT straps. :)
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George I use those as well in 3/8" size.

What is the difference?

Both are metal clips with 'semi' sharp edges.

There is no listing requirement.

I do agree with you that running NM against concrete just feels wrong even if in an area not subject to damage.

Your original plan of some wood seems like a fine one, I would have probably suggested shooting a running board on the wall and stapling the NM to that.
 
macmikeman said:
Take a measurement for a 2 x 4 from the top of your holes to the bottom of the joist.. Cut each end at an opposing 45 degree. Nail it to the bottom of the joist and the other end, ramset into the concrete wall. An angled board for you to staple your runs to, an added brace for the structure, and your romex needs no attachment to the concrete.
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That's a great solution too. I would need a bracket from the 2x4 to the concrete, because I would certainly blow my thumb off with the ramset trying to hold the board place while I nailed it to the concrete.

Then again, I bet some liquid nails would be even easier. I bet it would adhere to the concrete as solid as some nails would, too.
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334.15 In exposed work except as provided in 300.11(A)
300.11(A) Raceways, cable assemblies, boxes, cabinets and fittings shall be securely fastened in place.

Doesn't bored holes securely fasten them in place?

I'm with Bob on just a running down concrete wall.
 
georgestolz said:
I would say it's "unfinished". Therefore, there is no building finish. That leaves running boards, or drilling through the joists, doesn't it?
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I agree, and we also have never had a problem with inspectors for NM running beneath joists in crawlspaces. (It helps hold the insulation up, too.)
 
I believe the answer lies in what is defined as a crawl space vs an unfinished basement. and that answer lies in the AHJ. Maybe under an open deck is an unfinished basement? We need a definition clarification.
 
LarryFine said:
I agree, and we also have never had a problem with inspectors for NM running beneath joists in crawlspaces. (It helps hold the insulation up, too.)
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I've also seen romex laying in the dirt pass. That doesn't make it technically correct. ;)

wireman said:
I believe the answer lies in what is defined as a crawl space vs an unfinished basement. and that answer lies in the AHJ. Maybe under an open deck is an unfinished basement? We need a definition clarification.
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Do you think a crawlspace is a basement?

I was mulling this over this afternoon: Does anyone think a crawlspace subsection similar to 334.15(C) is in order?
 
George I have no links or price info on that type of wire guard ,... just a thought is all.

George, I was wondering if the space is considered dry , some inspectors are defining crawl spaces as damp locations, as some surely are .
 
georgestolz said:
Do you think a crawlspace is a basement?
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I don't think the NEC views crawl spaces as unfinished basements.
210.8(A) makes the distinction in subsections (4)Crawl Spaces and (5)Unfinished Basements

I originally thought stapling to the underside of crawl-space trusses was illegal, but I changed my mind after reading that. I think it goes back to intent: On average there is much more potential for damage to wires in an unfinished basement than in a crawl space.

-John
 
Well john I think you win the small stuffed bear on the third shelve, you hit it on the nose, I think our question has been answered. But then again thats only the nec's opinion.
 
Originaly posted bygeorgestoltz
That's a great solution too. I would need a bracket from the 2x4 to the concrete, because I would certainly blow my thumb off with the ramset trying to hold the board place while I nailed it to the concrete.
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George, nail the top side first, apply pressure to the bottom side with your free hand (well enough away to not blow off your thumb) and affix the bottom bevel to the concrete with either a ramset gun (easy way), or you could use con-tap anchors, or plenty of other methods.
 
Around my town, running romex stapled to the bottom of a crawlspace joist is looked at the same as basements. Reason: it gets used as a surfboard rack all too often when its put in that way. Most older homes around here are lifted up off the ground with a crawlspace, and most have surfboards stored under the house. Too tempting.
 
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