Crawlspace Wall Dilemma

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big john said:
I don't think the NEC views crawl spaces as unfinished basements.
210.8(A) makes the distinction in subsections (4)Crawl Spaces and (5)Unfinished Basements

I originally thought stapling to the underside of crawl-space trusses was illegal, but I changed my mind after reading that. I think it goes back to intent: On average there is much more potential for damage to wires in an unfinished basement than in a crawl space.

-John
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I agree with John. The two terms aren't interchangeable.
 
big john said:
I don't think the NEC views crawl spaces as unfinished basements. ... I originally thought stapling to the underside of crawl-space trusses was illegal, but I changed my mind after reading (210.8).
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wireman3736 said:
Well john I think you win the small stuffed bear on the third shelve, you hit it on the nose, I think our question has been answered. But then again thats only the nec's opinion.
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I am confused - if crawlspaces are definutely not basements, then why do you guys believe that therefore you can run under the joists? Not being a basement (in my mind) just means we lose the permission to run 8/3 or 6/2 under the joists; not that we gain free license to just do as we please. :confused:

I agree that the two terms aren't interchangable, but disagree with the result this gives us. I see the requirements being more restrictive, not less.
 
georgestolz said:
I am confused - if crawlspaces are definutely not basements, then why do you guys believe that therefore you can run under the joists?
I agree that the two terms aren't interchangeable, but disagree with the result this gives us.
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George I feel the same as you, I have been waiting to see if someone else was as confused as I.
 
wireman3736 said:
I don't see what the confusion is,
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For me it starts here.

big john said:
I don't think the NEC views crawl spaces as unfinished basements.
210.8(A) makes the distinction in subsections (4)Crawl Spaces and (5)Unfinished Basements

I originally thought stapling to the underside of crawl-space trusses was illegal, but I changed my mind after reading that. I think it goes back to intent: On average there is much more potential for damage to wires in an unfinished basement than in a crawl space.
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It reads to me that he agrees basements and crawl spaces are separate but than he goes on to say we can staple on the bottom of crawl space joists.

He seems to be agreeing to both sides....he may be a politician.:D
 
yes i believe they are seperate and yes I believe you can staple on the bottom of floor joists in crawl spaces,

Thank You for your support in my run for office.
 
I too believe that there is a difference between a un-finished basement and a crawlspace. I also believe that I can (per code) staple NM to the bottom of the floor joists in a crawl space. If not, what prevents it?
2005 NEC
334.15(A) To follow surface....I believe that the bottom of the joists is the surface finish because it is the final surface finish on the lowest part of the framing. If I can run parallel on the bottom of the joist then why not perpendicular?
334.15(B) Cable shall be protected from physical damage (is there any other kind possible?) .....I don't think that NM stapled to the bottom edge in a crawl space is subject to damage. If so, what kind?
334.15(C) In unfinished basements....we've already covered that.
334.30 Securing and supporting.......stapled at intervals less than =/<54". Most joists are 16" OC, so no problem here.
300.4 Protection Against Physical damage (?)
(A)(1) In both exposed and concealed locations "WHERE" a cable is installed thru bored holes........Where is not a requirement for boring holes.
(A)(2) Notches in wood......"WHERE" again.
334.12 Uses not permitted
(B)(4) Where exposed or subject to "excessive" moisture or dampness.....If a crawl space is "excessively" moist or damp, there must be problems with the A/C ducting, the plumbing or the roof.
I believe that the reason you can't staple to the bottom of joists in a un-finished basement is because the occupants will use the cable for everything from hanging up wet laundry to storing their fishing rods. This is not a problem in crawl spaces, at least none that I've seen.
steve
 
It's from coming here that I picked up the idea that the codes is permissive: If it doesn't say it can't be done, we can do it.

334.15(C) Recognizes that unfinished basements are areas where wiring is suseptible to damage, so it restricts the cable size that can be run perpendicular to joists.

Nothing is mentioned about crawl spaces, and since the code does recognize the distinction between crawl spaces and basements, I have to assume there are no special provisions beyond what is listed in Article 300 and 334.

But that brings us full circle back 334.15(A) And I'm honestly not sure what I make of that, because if we absolutely apply 334.15(A) then it also makes this type of installation illegal in roof-spaces and attics, where--except as restricted by 334.23--nobody would argue that it is. That leads me to believe that 335.15(A) does not automatically restrict running perpendicular to framing memebers.

Hope that's not too obtuse.

-Vote John '08 :D
 
I believe because the code specificly forbids stapling to the bottom of the joists in unfinished basements that it permits it in other locations unless forbiddin in other sections, I'm satisfied that I will continue to staple in crawl spaces unless the AHJ tells me other wise. If that happens then i guess I'll change.
 
hillbilly said:
334.15(A) To follow surface....I believe that the bottom of the joists is the surface finish because it is the final surface finish on the lowest part of the framing. If I can run parallel on the bottom of the joist then why not perpendicular?
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If that is true, then there is no such thing as an unfinished basement. :)
 
wireman3736 said:
I believe because the code specificly forbids stapling to the bottom of the joists in unfinished basements...
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That is not correct. This is like asking, "is the glass half empty or half full?"
The difference is, the glass is always full - half with air, half with water.
In this case, we have permissions and requirements filling the glass. All cables in unfinished basements are covered with (C). The glass is (C).

(C) In Unfinished Basements. Where cable is run at angles with joists in unfinished basements, it shall be permissible to secure cables not smaller than two 6 AWG or three 8 AWG conductors directly to the lower edges of the joists. Smaller cables shall be run either through bored holes in joists or on running boards. ...
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Refer back to 90.5. It does not forbid small conductor cables from being stapled to the bottom of the joists. It permits large conductor cables to be stapled to the bottom of the joists. It goes on to require smaller cables to run through bored holes or on running boards.

wireman said:
I'm satisfied that I will continue to staple in crawl spaces unless the AHJ tells me other wise. If that happens then i guess I'll change.
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Allowing the AHJ to dictate to you what the NEC says is sailing into uncharted waters without a compass. That's what this place is all about to me: Navigation Class. :D
 
big john said:
334.15(C) Recognizes that unfinished basements are areas where wiring is suseptible to damage, so it restricts the cable size that can be run perpendicular to joists.
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Same sermon, see my last post. :)

big john said:
Nothing is mentioned about crawl spaces, and since the code does recognize the distinction between crawl spaces and basements, I have to assume there are no special provisions beyond what is listed in Article 300 and 334.
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Agreed.

big john said:
But that brings us full circle back 334.15(A) And I'm honestly not sure what I make of that, because if we absolutely apply 334.15(A) then it also makes this type of installation illegal in roof-spaces and attics, where--except as restricted by 334.23--nobody would argue that it is. That leads me to believe that 335.15(A) does not automatically restrict running perpendicular to framing members.
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Here's an idea I just had: What if 320.23(A) is defining what portions of an attic are exposed work? The rules governing these are darn near the same as the exposed work rules in 334.15(A). Food for thought. :)
 
Don't give up, I'm having fun. :D

I'm not saying anybody's evil or whatever for stapling to the bottom of the joists in a crawlspace. I just want to explore this to exaustion and see what consensus can be had.

I have to speak my case for a discussion to develop. I'm not trying to hammer you down. :)
 
georgestolz said:
Same sermon, see my last post. :)


Agreed.


Here's an idea I just had: What if 320.23(A) is defining what portions of an attic are exposed work? The rules governing these are darn near the same as the exposed work rules in 334.15(A). Food for thought. :)
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( I won't give up ), I don't see where 320.23A is defining exposed work, I think it has more to do with protection if it's an accessible attic. as it says protection is only required within 6' of the hole if its not accessible by permanent stairs or ladders. so this allows you to run romex across the joists since this section was refered by 334.23.so we can run it in the attic but not the crawl space Hmmmmm
 
georgestolz said:
If that is true, then there is no such thing as an unfinished basement. :)
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(IMHO) Comparing "un-finished basement" to "surface finish" is a long stretch.
Surface finish is is pretty clear. Un-finished basement to me is a generalized term, and depends on who is making the judgement. 210.8(A)(4&5)(2005) makes a distinction between a crawl space and a un-finished basement. It defines a un-finished basement as "portions or areas of the basement not intended as habital rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like". It doesn't mention what kind of ceiling finish there is, or even if there is one.
steve
 
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