Crossroads - My rant (long)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Shockedby277v

Shockedby277v

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
To bring you up to speed, I got my Journeyman's card last June. For some God forsaken reason my company gave me a 500k electrical job to run. Some features include but aren't limited to ... 700 high bays, 300 floorboxes, 2 different inspectors, a print I could use for toilet paper, a dozen changes and a tight schedule.

It's 3 months into the job, and I know I'm in way over my head but continue to do the doggy paddle to try to stay afloat. I'm not meeting my goals on the job and don't care for it that way. The job is a muddy mess and we (electricians) are getting the shaft because we have the majority of the work with limited time, so we're leaving open ends unfortinatly. We had to rent a full track boom lift to move around in . Ever bend conduit in a 3'x6' basket 30' in the air??

The first thing the sprinkler fitter forman says to me is " I have done almost forty of these stores and 3/4's of the time the electrical job runner quits before it's done, your screwed". A little word of encouragement always helps.

Now about my crew. I have 5 guys... 2 journeyman and 3 apprentices(note: both Journeyman are new to the company). The Journeyman were sent to help me with problematic areas I have and remove some burden. When they first arrived I told both the situation and please work with me on how I may or may not be doing things correctly. They both seperatly asked to take the print home. Neither has done so. My fourth year apprentice has helped more than the Journeyman and I only have him for a few weeks.

This brings me to today. OSHA visit. Nuff said on that. I get a call from our president saying he is trying to reach one of the Journeyman and if I could have him give him a call. The guy is trying to stab me in the back. He has his reasons. I have made my mistakes but he isn't any better. When he arrives I give him my phone with the presidents name on it. He says " yeah, I wanna talk to you before I talk to him". Can you say busted. We had a nice conversation to say the least with still no movement forward, from my stance.

This job has been making me nutty. I can't think. I can't sleep. I hate feeling like a fool. And quiting has been crossing my mind more and more. That's where the crossroads heading comes in. I have been with the company for 6 years and have respect from the majority of the employees who I would call friends. I'm thinking of having a chat with said president how I think I have been given a raw deal and something needs to be done before myself and the company are sunk. Quiting is drastic. All jobs go this way?? Anyone ever feel this way and have a positive outcome?? suggestions???
 
You must realize that I have close to zero experience in this situation but I am confused about the part where each journeyman asked to take the prints home and then neither did. How big are the prints? Are they the monsterous 3' X 4' or the more manageable 1 1/2' x 3'? In any case, on day one, I would take those prints, at least the main E-1 pages down to Kinko's and get five copies of each made -- one for each worker. They are about $1.50 per 1 1/2' X 3' page. [Toilet paper size would be cheaper.] Use the President's credit card.
Given the size, 100,000 sq. ft., it sounds like you need more help. What store is this [name]? If it has a concrete slab, then you need a scissors lift for each worker.
I would bend the conduit on the floor in any case.
~Peter
Oh, and good luck and hang in there!
 
Hey Shocked,
Sorry to hear your tale of woe. A few times in my life I have been on those jobs that seem to rob you of all the joy in your life. When you're at the job you hate it, when you're not there you're thinking about how much you're gonna hate going back to it right?

I would try to see it through. If you were ever going to quit I would say now is not the time for it. Right now your thinking abilities may not be at their highest potential because you are under so much stress. I think if you stick it out at some point in the future, when you're in another tight spot you'll be able to think back on how you got through that tough job in the mud. Having put one like this under your belt will do wonders for both your confidence in yourself and in your ability to rise above a challenge.

There are always going to be those people who try to elevate themselves by putting you down. Try not to lower yourself to thier level. Just do the best job you can, nobody can legitimately ask for more than that. And don't put too much stock in negative people like the sprinkler foreman. You are not the guy who quit on the last one. He shouldn't compare you to that guy and neither should you. You're not screwed, you have a tough job to do and that's just the way it is. Hang in there, do the best job you can with what you've got. If you do, no matter what happens you can hold your head high because you did the best you could.

I have seen positive outcomes. As I said before, when you get through this you're going to be a better electrician, a better foreman and you'll be better prepared to face the challenges ahead. This job is going to end one way or another. If you can outlast the challenge and see it through to the end that sprinkler foreman is going to have to say you are one heck of a foreman and a better man than he might have thought before.

Hang in there!

Tom
 
Just out of curiosity, what kind of job would need 700 highbays and 300 floor boxes? That combo just doesn't seem to go together.
 
Thnx for the positive input guys. I didn't know about the kinko's bit. I wish I did. The conduit is bent on the lift because everything gets painted prior to any poured cement. The store is a competitor of big orange without any names being said. There is more lights than just the high bays to add. I have 3 panels just for lighting displays. 19 HR's for that cat.
 
Shockedby277v said:
The store is a competitor of big orange without any names being said.
Click to expand...

I have no idea who this could possibly be. ;) Why can't you say it? We can name drop here, and in fact, if someone else has done a Lowe's or similar store, they can be better equipped to help you with the specifics of the job.

I'll give you some advice that I've heard from others: If you haven't learned retail work while in the pay of others...run....very fast. But since running is not an option at this point, I would approach the management of your company and say "Help, I'm in over my head. I need help from some of the experienced guys. I can't handle the job and I'm thinking about quitting." I'm sure they'll listen.
 
Bah, been a long month. I highly doubt I would quit, then the guilt would eat at me. There's more to it than just what I wrote. It has been one of those days.
 
Question: Is a six man crew normal for a job of this size?

You may not have a real problem, just need some more help.

You should try to figure out what it would take to get the project on track. Is it more men, faster material deliveries,different equipment.

Don't let the job tank. Whatever it will take to get the job done, go to your boss and ask for it.

I had to raise hell once to get a new bender on a job. The piece of crap they sent out was slowing progress and wasting pipe. Sure they cried a lot but I got the new side winder. The crew was happpier. The job gets done.

Don't listen to all that talk about others that have quite. Go have that talk with your boss and get whatever problems you are haveing straightened out.

Someone will eventually finish the job so why not let it be you. Good Luck.
 
Having felt like that and screwed up a few times in similar situations (but in completely different fields), the first question you need to answer for yourself is do you feel you under stress because you're stuck:

* electrically (i.e. theres just stuff you don't know, and theres no-one more experienced to help)

* organizationally (i.e. you cant keep your staff of five occupied with appropriate tasks, or you cant see the big picture of how you can get from start to finish)

* managerially (you've got staff you can't get to be part of the team).

If you can figure out what's biting you then you can start to think about how to either resolve the problem, or make it go away. Each of the above possibilities has different answers, but if you're a valued member of your firm than the boss will help you because (frankly) it's in his interest to do so.
 
Ok, here is the key to completing your project. PLANNING, PLANNING, PLANNING. Job failure is more often because of poor planning rather than incompetent labor. As a contractor, I have made a lot of money rescueing other contractors without having to pick up a single tool. We have changed the outcome of many projects just by being on site and directing the existing labor force. It is your job to PLAN the work. You cannot hit your target without knowing where you are in relation to your target. Spend some time (as if you have any extra) making a schedule of work to be done and when it needs to be completed. This will be your "target". You will easily identify when and where you are behind schedule. After you complete your schedule, you will be able to determine whether the manpower on the project is sufficient to meet your deadlines. Remember that even the biggest projects are just a group of smaller tasks put together. This job is no different than a group of little jobs. Before you leave work every day you should have tasks planned for each member of your crew for the next day IN WRITING. When assigning tasks, inform each crew member 1. when you expect the task to start (NOW!), 2. exactly what needs to be done. 3. when you expect the task to be finished. It is very important to tell them when you expect it to be finished because most people want to succeed, so they will work to meet your desired completion time. You also need to have the proper material at the proper time. NEVER run out of material. Material is cheap compared to unproductive labor.

You also need to put the right person on the right task. I recommend hiring temporary help if possible to prep the high bay lights. You most certainly do not want a journeyman or even a 4th yr. apprentice unboxing lights and throwing away 700 boxes of trash. Also, when it is time to hang the lights, I suggest having the entire company come in at night or on the weekend when you can use other contractors lifts, and work the task like an assembly line. You will be much more productive that way. It will also create a little competition to see who will get the most lights installed.

Now when dealing with your office, always be honest. If you are behind schedule, don't lie and say it will get done on time. If your schedule requires more labor, let the office know well ahead of time.

Now to relieve stress and be a better leader, you must be healthy. Take time to eat a proper (healthy) lunch. Do not get upset and yell at your crew, it will never make things better. If someone is not performing as you expect, find out why. What will motivate this person to work better? Find that out and try to give it to them.

Last but not least, it is only a job. It will eventually get done...they all do. It's not like the boss can come to the job and beat you up. The worst that can happen is you get fired. Big deal...you'll find another job. You may take a little hit to your ego, but you'll live. Oh, by the way, GC foreman on the project will generally do their very best to stick it to you at every turn. DO NOT allow this to happen. If you are meeting their schedule, do not allow them to change dates, sequence, or add changes without getting time added to the schedule. BEFORE any changes are made, get a change order in writing from the GS's office. They will always try to get you to make the change without the written CO, but do not do it. Tell the GC that if they need the change to be made quickly, have the GC's office authorize the work and schedule change quickly.

You are welcome to pm me to discuss this more in depth.

Good luck,

Rich
 
It sounds to me that you are just getting a bit swamped....worrying about the next phase before this phase is complete. There's nothing wrong with that. You want your layouts now to match up with what the final product is supposed to look like.

At this stage in the game - are more people needed? You seem to be working on a dirt floor. Is all the underground done? Focus on getting those stubs above grade.
After you have a floor, that is when you will you need additional manpower - you have to stay ahead of the shelving guys.

If you are confident in your abilities, there are only 3 things you need(IMHO):
- manpower
- material
- tools

If any of these areas is lacking, the job will be heading down the toilet. The sooner the deficincy is noticed, the sooner it can be remedied.
 
Did you say that they won't pour your slab until they are done painting the ceiling?! That seems incredibly weird to me. If they are that worried about the slab (and I could see how, since it's retail), why not cover the slab...then you could all use normal lifts.

If that's how big box retail is run, I want nothing of it!
 
First let me tell you that it's always the electricians fault when a job is running behind, so don't let that bother you.

Second, your boss would not have given you the job if he didn't think that you could handle it. His reputation is on the line too.

Third, every big job goes like this. I just finished inspecting a mall that has a blue store next to it as well as four other large out buildings. They set a time schedule, play around for a few months finally get started and nobody thinks to change the schedule. They were just setting walls at one of the stores when a truck full of stock showed up.

Are you really behind or are you just overwelmed? You might be right on schedule and like some others said you're just unorginized or feel that way. Having a crew that doesn't want to be a team or a general superintendent that is breathing down you neck probably isn't helping either.

Relax, take a deep breath, threaten the supers life and you'll feel better. : )

Good luck.
 
Shockedby277v, you've been given some great advice here, I especially like RomexKing's post. I can relate to what you are currently going through, although I bowed out long before things got to where you are. When I was hired by a company that did HVAC controls, I had just gotten my journeyman card but didn't know a thing about HVAC controls nor have I ever worked with them. No problem though because I was only there because it seemed like a good opportunity to learn and to run pipe, which I loved doing at the time. Well just days before my first day the jobsite super calls and tells me that he'd like ME to run the job, a chiller plant. I said I'd give it a shot but I was completely honest with him and told him I never ran a job before and I knew nothing about chiller plants. Well after a month I told the guy, who was really cool and understanding, that I didn't feel comfortable being the go to guy when everything was so new to me. I was honored that I was given the opportunity to run the job, you probably felt the same when you were given this job, but when people (Helpers and the GC) came asking questions, I didn't have the answers for them and that's what I didn't like. I had a good relationship with my supervisors and they sent a more knowledgable guy to help out and I became his assistant. Again, it's great to be in charge but is it worth it when the stress is keeping you up at night? For me the answer is a big hell no. Tell your boss you need a seasoned company guy/girl to lend you a hand, he doesn't even need to be on site all day, just to get some weight off of your shoulders and to point you in the right direction. There's no shame in asking for help in my opinion. Best of luck to you, you can do it, keep us posted.
 
Here is what you need to do all day,

Say this over and over to yourself, "I can do it, we can do it."

The next thing you know you will have it done. When you run into a snag, think outside the box and come up with a solution.

DON"T give up.
 
First off, thnx for the replies.

I feel a lot better than yesterday. I needed a breather.

Last Tuesday when my PM came down for the progress meeting I had a chat with him about my help I have. I have 2 guys that drive about 2 hrs one way, I told him those guys are beat when they get to the site after that type of drive. I also told him I know the one of them had a noose around his neck when he was sent to me. Word gets around. Rumor has it he said if he was sent to my job he would quit because of it being such a long drive. After bringing it up, it was confirmed. I blew up on the guy last Saturday when he had 30' pipe up in 2 and 1/2 hrs. Needless to say, I am getting a different guy next week as a "replacement" and later during next week I am getting one of our butt kicking apprentices.

I do have problem areas and am not perfect. This is a huge learning experience and it's like starting all over again. I stayed over a few nights early in the week to fix my fubars with our second, yes, second temp service. On my own time of coarse. I think that was part of my drag down. We needed a 480v 3 phase to temp the 11 RTU's and our first is only 240v. I have a second shift crew going to utilize the lift situation, so it wasn't like I was alone in the building. :)

Tomorrows another day, then the weekend is here. I'm gonna try not to even think about that place!
 
Shockedby277v said:
Tomorrows another day, then the weekend is here. I'm gonna try not to even think about that place!
Click to expand...

Exactly.

Go play with your kids, find a wife, go ice fishing, whatever it is that you do - do it!

...and I hate to say it, but AVOID this site for the weekend. Once you log on, you'll start thinking about the job and the weekend will be shot.
 
Romexking, that was a truly great post. Shocked, you must stop with the trying to work and manage at the same time. Drop the tools and manage. It goes against the grain, but produces more output. And in times that overwhelm, consider Winston Churchill and the state England was in just prior to when the US joined. "Endevor to Persevere". Just dwell on what he went thru and you will pull through also.
 
I haven't had the pressures of trying to run a commercial job before, but I've felt the strain of "paddling to stay afloat".

macmikeman said:
Shocked, you must stop with the trying to work and manage at the same time. Drop the tools and manage. It goes against the grain, but produces more output.
Click to expand...

This is a good tip. I've seen jobs where the foreman was handed a dozen guys to complete a project, and the guy insisted on trying to get something done himself. The job was like a broken record of two or three guys standing around, wondering what to do next at any given moment. I'd hate to even try to add up the wasted time on that job.

Your primary concern is getting the crew moving, efficiently, and if your two hands accomplish something by the end of the day, that's a bonus.

It is important that your crew feel like you're contributing to the team, but if you are bustling from employee to employee and quickly putting out fires as they develop, they will see this and respect it too.

It may sound ridiculous, but I learned a lot by managing at Wendy's. :D

They have a management training program that is full of good principles, and the entire operation is geared toward the handling of impossible goals with the highest productivity possible. It is reflective of probably any field: with a small crew, the manager must monitor progress and make adjustments in a working position. In their flow charts, the manager is always on the easiest station available as the manpower goes up, so that overall performance can be monitored continuously.

Even the stores themselves are being built more centralistically for the purpose of continuous monitoring of all positions from any vantage point.

Once all the easy positions are filled, there are enough employees present to make managing a full-time concern.

In order to get control of the situation, you have to remove yourself from it, and look at it from the perspective of taking over somebody else's headache. Apply the discipline you've learned from prior experience to this problem. Discipline can cure a lot of ills.

My definition of discipline is not letting a whim catch your eye. In houses, this means not focusing on something that is fun as opposed to something that needs to be done. Discipline is boxing the whole house. Roping the whole house. Stripping out the whole house. Breaking things up and just doing a little of each task in each area just results in a lot of loose ends. Experience and discipline keep us from too many loose ends.

To be honest, I'm still trying to grapple with what shows discipline in this respect at the commercial level. Loose ends seem to happen despite best efforts.

Discipline is not forgetting the little details that make a task go smoother - in houses, if your routine calls for stapling as you go, crimping your romex in a certain pattern for faster recall later on, and so forth, do not let anyone forget these details.

In commercial, I think the equivalent would be tightening set screws, having set procedures for tasks, such as assembling a box (connectors, gnd screw, hangar, p-ring, mount - or whatever works for you). Making this a subconscious given for all your crew, and emphasising this, will make things happen faster.

  • What are the glaring problems that have to be fixed immediately, or they'll get exponentially worse as time goes on?
  • What are the tasks that must be completed to get temp receptacles, lighting and other concerns out of the picture for a long time? I've noticed in commercial that all trades are dependent on us to get going efficiently, and a tripped breaker snags time from the electricians. Rooms that get dark after drywall immediately throw up cries for temp lighting. Have it done before they have a chance to break your concentration and flow.
  • Prioritize the remaining tasks. Try to iron out all issues from one side of an area to the next.
  • Increase the responsibility of your help. If you can't trust someone (within their skill level), then they are not worth much to you. This goes along with 5 sets of plans - ready access to the prints on each cart means people don't have to spend half the day walking around to look at the plans, to be sure that the small section of real estate that they own is perfect.
My advice would be to take a normal day off to go over there on your own time with a clipboard, when you're not being distracted every other second with some other problem, and get your plan figured out. Even though it may not last long, it will give you a foundation from which to react to changes with the big picture in mind.
 
georgestolz said:
This is a good tip. I've seen jobs where the foreman was handed a dozen guys to complete a project, and the guy insisted on trying to get something done himself. The job was like a broken record of two or three guys standing around, wondering what to do next at any given moment. I'd hate to even try to add up the wasted time on that job.

Your primary concern is getting the crew moving, efficiently, and if your two hands accomplish something by the end of the day, that's a bonus.
Click to expand...
Good advice.
The first job I ran was an auto parts store....from 7-3:00 I had about 6 guys so I worked, put out fires, and answered few questions. From 3-11 I had about 15 guys...all I did was walk, plan, answer questions(basically delegate).


georgestolz said:
My advice would be to take a normal day off to go over there on your own time with a clipboard...
Click to expand...
This is NOT something I would do or expect any of my people to do. If they wanted to take a print home, fine....but their time is their time...I don't want them yapping to their girlfriends, boyfriends, or wives on my time...and I don't want them working on their time on my project.

On that auto parts store, the managers booth (some elevated perch like a watch tower or something) was a royal PITA to layout....conduits from several different sources (power and data) all over within the walls...push buttons and buzzers and other crap, etc.

The lights were actually UP and ON and I hadn't devoted ANY time to this critical area. Not much left to do, can't prolong the inevitable any longer....right after coffee, I took the prints; myself; and my truck to the park a few blocks away (I just happened to forget my cellphone ;) ). A few hours later after a nice lunch at Houlihan's/Friday's sort of place...I was back. Laid out the room. Got 3 men over there and let them do THEIR thing. If a head popped up from the booth, I knew they had a question or were lighting a smoke....either way, I was comming to put the fire out :)

Find your "zen"....mine is a park and a nice lunch - and it's lunch time for me :D now.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top