CSST banned

[Pierre C Belarge]

So today as I was coming home I meet a heating contractor who is also an EC. He had just gotten a call from his customer who said he was looking out the front window when there was a lightning strike. He said he could see the lightning flashing across the ground and make a direct hit on the neighbors house. Within seconds the house was engulfed in flames.

I asked if his customer had CSST and he said no just black pipe. I said I bet the neighbor had csst. . Of course, I am not being fair here since I don't know for sure.

It will be interesting to know what really happened.

Of course, you are going to let us know...:grin:

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Of course, you are going to let us know...:grin:

For sure-- Last night I heard the lightning traveled down the masonry chimney. Who knows.

Back to Trac Pipe-- Here is a fax my friend got from Trac Piping

"To TracPipe Installer:
Our records indicate that you received training in installing TracPipe CSST before March 2007.

Beginning in 1999, we included a requirement in our Design Guide and Installation Instructions for the bonding of our TracPipe CSST to the electrical ground in the building. Since that time, we have made changes to the D&I Guide, including new accessories and products such as CounterStrike CSST. We wanted to make you aware of some of the changes to the D&I Guide -- especially about bonding of the TracPipe and CounterStrike CSST. See the attached excerpt from our current D&I Guide.

A print copy of the current D&I Guide is available from your plumbing supply house, or on line at www.omegaflex.com/trac/downloads.asp.

If you have any questions, you can contact our Engineering Department at (610) 524-7272.

Thank you for buying TracPipe and CounterStrike CSST."

The attached excerpt was a copy of pages 68, 69, and 70 from the December 2007 design and installation guide which was distributed at our NCAEC meeting. I mentioned the salient points in my earlier email to you. If you would like another copy of the guide (I have several more), I'll leave it at Hunt Electric for you.

Yesterday morning I had an extensive (about 45 minute) conversation with Joe McGinnis of OmegaFlex's engineering department. He confirmed my opinion, and stated that:

1. The intent of the language that you quoted from the OmegaFlex website was to indicate that TracPipe must be bonded and that CounterStrike requires no bonding over and above that which is required of TracPipe.

2. All CSST manufactured by OmegaFlex (that is, both TracPipe and CounterStrike) must be bonded.

3. The size of the bonding conductor is given in Table 250.66 of NFPA70. Conductor size is in accordance with Table 310.15(B)(6).

4 There may be an error on page 99 of the guide concerning the size of the bonding conductor for mobile homes.. He was unaware that mobile homes may have service greater than 125 amps. The number 8 copper bonding conductor inplies a single-phase dwelling service of 125 amps or less. He will review the printed statement on page 99 with his boss.

Now go to their website-- btw, they discontinued the yellow stuff and have a second generation counter strike. Here is what it states

CounterStrike? Installation
CounterStrike with the black, protective sleeve uses the same easy
to install AutoFlare? fittings as conventional TracPipe? with the
yellow coating. It is sold on wooden reels of varying lengths to
meet the needs of the gas piping contractor.
There are no additional bonding requirements for
CounterStrike? imposed by the manufacturer's installation
instructions. Improved CounterStrike is to be bonded in
accordance with the National Electrical Code NFPA 70 Article
250.104, the National Fuel Gas Code NFPA 54, and with any
local requirements which may be in excess of the national codes.

Are they kidding or what.

Here is what 250.104 states

(B) Other Metal Piping. Where installed in or attached to a building or structure, a metal piping system(s), including gas piping, that is likely to become energized shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with 250.122, using the rating of the circuit that is likely to energize the piping system(s). The equipment grounding conductor for the circuit that is likely to energize the piping shall be permitted to serve as the bonding means. The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.

 

[iwire]

This is not the same as most code changes.

The changes came inbetween code cycles, with very little consensus input for the process.

I agree, it appears to be different then waiting for the next code cycle. But I also have no idea how those codes are written and adopted. :smile:

But beyond the timing it is the same as most code changes. The 2008 change requiring SE to be used at 60 C, do we now have to worry abut the old installations?

The ban that has just occured in Mass is far from normal. I have been involved with the decisions in NYS, and I can tell you it is far from normal.

I can not tell you what is normal for the Massachusetts's Board of State Examiner of Plumbers and Gas Fitters and I am sure you can not either. :smile:

NYS came very close to banning the product as well. I am surmising the reason it was not banned, is the legal department did not want to deal with the public when they found out it was banned and the existing home installations are not being dealt with.

I am having an hard time understanding the above comment at all.

To me, if the Board of State Examiner of Plumbers and Gas Fitters feels there is a legitimate safety issue involving gas piping they had better act on it. To stall on it because "the legal department did not want to deal with the public when they found out it was banned and the existing home installations are not being dealt with" would be darn near criminal. And I am very surprised you do not see it that way.

 

[M. D.]

I'm not so sure the reason this stuff was rescinded was due to a sudden realization that it is not safe,... the folks who make the stuff changed the requirements for installation and there is a conflict with the Authorities having Jurisdiction...about what and which authorty is responsible for what enforcement and of which trade ,.. just my guess....


This is a temporary situation
until such time as the Manufactures' recently amended bonding requirements are resolved by the appropriate Authorities Having Jurisdiction..

Once the boards figure out how and who will enforce what or if a little change in the installation instructions is required ,.. the temporary ban will be lifted...

 

[wbalsam1]

NYS came very close to banning the product as well. I am surmising the reason it was not banned, is the legal department did not want to deal with the public when they found out it was banned and the existing home installations are not being dealt with.

I am having an hard time understanding the above comment at all.

To me, if the Board of State Examiner of Plumbers and Gas Fitters feels there is a legitimate safety issue involving gas piping they had better act on it. To stall on it because "the legal department did not want to deal with the public when they found out it was banned and the existing home installations are not being dealt with" would be darn near criminal. And I am very surprised you do not see it that way.

This has not been my experience at all. The above statement was a "surmisal" and not an "official" take on what really transpired. The Codes Council will meet again the 17th of this month to again deal with this evolving matter.

I assure you from my experience with serving on many technical groups for NYS I have an entirely different take.




Here it is:

• The legislature passed a statute that granted authority to state agencies to promulgate rules and regulations.
• So, a concern such as the hazards involved with CSST becomes an issue and the Codes Division of the state agency known as the Department of State is made aware by interested people, parties and other affected entities.
• The Codes Division creates a technical subcommittee to research and evaluate the hazard.
• The state agency writes a proposed rule and prepares a regulatory impact statement. Also a "regulatory flexible analysis" for small business and a few other impact statements and analyses are conducted.
• A public comment period is established and testimony is entered into the record.
• Then, the Governor's Office of Regulatory Reform (GORR) reviews the proposals for need, etc.
• The Codes Division gets approval from GORR and publishes the proposed rule in the state register and submits copies to the Administrative Regulations Review Commission and legislative leaders.
• The Codes Division acting as Secretary to the Codes Council will have a public comment period for 30-60 days. If substantial changes are made as the result of public concern, another revised publication and comment period takes place.
• The agency adopts the final rule.
• This rule is filed with the Department of State's Division of Administrative Rules.
• A Notice of Adoption is then published in the NYS Register that a new or amended rule has been adopted.
• Then the rule is published in upcoming supplementations to our NYCRR (New York Compilation of Rules and Regulations).

Throughout the many times I've been involved with this process I have never personally seen the state cower at its' legal responsibility to safeguard the public.

http://www.dos.state.ny.us/proposed_regs/1220etal.htm

 

[nakulak]

I worked as a plumber/gas fitter for a few years, and I gotta say I love this stuff, especially when I recall threading and hanging 21' sticks of 2" by myself. The engineering that went into designing the self flaring and swage lock style fittings and such has always impressed me since it first came out (although I have seen where self flaring fittings can be dangerous in the hands of poorly trained individuals who are not qualified or don't check their work)