CSST bonding to sub panel

[Dennis Alwon]

Csst has had a history of failure on lightning strikes. Lightning would slit open the csst and create a torch effect. That is when they started to require the bonding. After hundred of millions of dollars from the lawsuit they had to do something

 

[romex jockey]

Ah, well, seems i was a tad too focused on theory & mother nature to realize many codes are bourne of litigation...:ashamed1:..and so we can probably guess the CSST manufacturers went to the nfpa for us to toddle along behind every gas man & install this bonding bandaid....small wonder why we need millions of liability insurance....we could blow houses up.....maybe whole nieghborhoods...

~RJ~

 

[Jamesco]

I notice that 75' is the max..... what do you do if you can't get within 75'?

Add a Supplemental Electrode, (ground rod), and bond it to the existing ground rod. 250.53 (2)
Bond the CSST to the new rod. Gas code is met.

 

[kwired]

We have talked about this csst going to the intersystem bonding but at the big meetings it was stated that the intersystem bonding unit was not listed for bonding of csst. Local inspectors still allow it at times however most units have only 3 ports for other utilities so if you use one for the intersystem then you only have 2 left. Can one argue that the csst is another system???

Pretty sure it is not part of the electrical system, so any bonding to it would be bonding of another system wouldn't it?

The ISBT is required to go at the service or first disconnect which is where the GEC is typically going to land, or it connects directly to the GEC. Can't get too much better path to the GEC than that, no reason it can't be listed for this other than someone is too reluctant to look at it that way. ISBT maybe first came about as a way to bond to communications, but why not a way to bond anything outside the electrical system? Certainly worded like it means anything outside the electrical system.

Are they the same as defined by the NEC?

Who says the CSST gas pipe must be connected to the grounding electrode system?
The International Fuel Gas Code® (IFGC®).



http://www.csstsafety.com/Images/CSST-Direct-Bonding-Tech-Bulletin.pdf

Yea for IFGC, I am not a gas piping installer, let the installer run his own bonding wire to a terminal on the inter system bonding termination, or to the GEC just don't cut it and compromise the electrical install, it is what it is there for - other systems even though some think it is only for communications it probably should be for any other systems.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Add a Supplemental Electrode, (ground rod), and bond it to the existing ground rod. 250.53 (2)
Bond the CSST to the new rod. Gas code is met.

I would not feel comfortable with that although I agree it meets code. Another method is get the hvac company to extend their gas pipe. There is almost always some black iron that enters the building near the meter and panel area so we just bond to that. I know there are some cases where the situation is different and problemsome.

 

[Jamesco]

Pretty sure it is not part of the electrical system, so any bonding to it would be bonding of another system wouldn't it?

The ISBT is required to go at the service or first disconnect which is where the GEC is typically going to land, or it connects directly to the GEC. Can't get too much better path to the GEC than that, no reason it can't be listed for this other than someone is too reluctant to look at it that way. ISBT maybe first came about as a way to bond to communications, but why not a way to bond anything outside the electrical system? Certainly worded like it means anything outside the electrical system.



Yea for IFGC, I am not a gas piping installer, let the installer run his own bonding wire to a terminal on the inter system bonding termination, or to the GEC just don't cut it and compromise the electrical install, it is what it is there for - other systems even though some think it is only for communications it probably should be for any other systems.

It's work, why would you want to give it away?

 

[Jamesco]

I would not feel comfortable with that although I agree it meets code. Another method is get the hvac company to extend their gas pipe. There is almost always some black iron that enters the building near the meter and panel area so we just bond to that. I know there are some cases where the situation is different and problemsome.

Not sure why you would not feel comfortable with installing a ground rod close to where the CSST ground clamp will be installed. The shorter the path to earth the better.

The only thing the electrician could possibly be held liable for is the placement of the ground clamp on the CSST piping system. If the electrician has a problem with that hand the ground clamp to the plumber and have him place/install the clamp on the piping.

 

[kwired]

It's work, why would you want to give it away?

It is gas line installation, or at least part of that task. If I do it, I now have some liability tied to that gas line.

From a facilities owner perspective and knowing what I do about the issues with this CSST, I'd demand they run black pipe. The CSST may save some labor, but then is offset by having to hire an electrician to bond it, and you still end up with CSST and potential hairpin leaks - no thank you.

Some of my opinion here is based on fact they are installing an inferior product and I don't want anything to do with it. I can find other work that is worth doing.

 

[Jamesco]

It is gas line installation, or at least part of that task. If I do it, I now have some liability tied to that gas line.

From a facilities owner perspective and knowing what I do about the issues with this CSST, I'd demand they run black pipe. The CSST may save some labor, but then is offset by having to hire an electrician to bond it, and you still end up with CSST and potential hairpin leaks - no thank you.

Some of my opinion here is based on fact they are installing an inferior product and I don't want anything to do with it. I can find other work that is worth doing.

There were problems with the old Yellow jacketed CSST. To date there has not been any reported problems with the black jacketed arc resistant CSST piping.

Like I said in an earlier post the yellow CSST can no longer be used in my state.

In my state the gas line installed in new housing construction is CSST, period... If the builder says the electrician is responsible for bonding the CSST to ground I guess the residential electrical contractor can tell the builder to go to hell. Trust me there are plenty of other residential electrical contractors that will take their place.

Like I said it's work, why give it away?

Standard CSST installed inside or attached to a building or structure shall be electrically continuous and direct-bonded to the electrical ground system of the premises in which it is installed.

http://www.csstsafety.com/Images/CSS...h-Bulletin.pdf

shall be electrically continuous

What come to mind when you read that?

In my mind I seen the appliance, equipment, the gas line is servicing. In the majority of cases the appliance, equipment, is electrically powered. The appliance, equipment, is connected to the electrical service equipment ground. The CSST extends the EGC to the gas meter/piping outside the house. A path is provided for lightning to travel on the corrugated stainless steel piping of the CSST to the appliance, equipment, through the EGC to the electrical panel to the GEC to earth.
Could the electronics in the appliance ,equipment, be damaged in the event of a near by lightning strike?

Bonding the gas line at the outside or directly after entering the house provides a direct path to earth. The shorter the better.


.

 

[mwm1752]

It's in the Fuel Gas Code of the IRC. G2411. I'm sure it's in the IFGC as well.

IFCG 310.1.1.2 only with use of CSST as a branch piping. but how many specialized electrical inspectors will or legally hold the EC to a building/fuel gas code -- as stated before the NEC already addressed this with the bonding conductor being size per the branch circuit supplying the Appliance - gas bonding occurs with 110v circuit to gas oven, gas dryer, gas boiler , gas furnace, gas hot water heater so there may be many time the gas piping is bonded thru NEC.

 

[LarryFine]

IFCG 310.1.1.2 only with use of CSST as a branch piping. but how many specialized electrical inspectors will or legally hold the EC to a building/fuel gas code -- as stated before the NEC already addressed this with the bonding conductor being size per the branch circuit supplying the Appliance - gas bonding occurs with 110v circuit to gas oven, gas dryer, gas boiler , gas furnace, gas hot water heater so there may be many time the gas piping is bonded thru NEC.

Yes, the "load" end of each section of CSST is bonded via the EGC of the appliance's power supply.

The concern is that the "line" end of the CSST runs may be energized by a lightning strike nearby.

By bonding the gas supply line, we minimize the likelihood of such a strike causing current on the CSST.

 

[mwm1752]

My impression was that lightning strike created pin holes in the this CSST skin therefore diverting the lightning strike to earth as quickly as possible is the answer. The same principle is the same for wiring protection - I always thought it was a shame to install a product that created such a hazard.

 

[NTesla76]

99% of the electrical contractors around here won't touch CSST bonding. They didn't install the stuff, they don't want to be responsible for even touching it.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

My impression was that lightning strike created pin holes in the this CSST skin therefore diverting the lightning strike to earth as quickly as possible is the answer. The same principle is the same for wiring protection - I always thought it was a shame to install a product that created such a hazard.

You are correct and it is amazing that people still use it or that they even sell it.... The black Csst is designed to resist lightning so no bonding is necessary by the manufacturer

 

[NTesla76]

You are correct and it is amazing that people still use it or that they even sell it.... The black Csst is designed to resist lightning so no bonding is necessary by the manufacturer

For some reason, the gas utility here still requires the black CSST and black iron to have additional bonding in addition to the bond from the equipment ground. Something to do with lawyers I'm guessing.

 

[Jamesco]

For some reason, the gas utility here still requires the black CSST and black iron to have additional bonding in addition to the bond from the equipment ground. Something to do with lawyers I'm guessing.

Same in my state.

No bond, no gas service to the house.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

For some reason, the gas utility here still requires the black CSST and black iron to have additional bonding in addition to the bond from the equipment ground. Something to do with lawyers I'm guessing.

I told my guys to bond the black CSST also. Cover my own butt

 

[romex jockey]

Yea for IFGC, I am not a gas piping installer, let the installer run his own bonding wire to a terminal on the inter system bonding termination, or to the GEC just don't cut it and compromise the electrical install, it is what it is there for - other systems even though some think it is only for communications it probably should be for any other systems.

agreed...

It's work, why would you want to give it away?

high liability, low profit....

Some of my opinion here is based on fact they are installing an inferior product and I don't want anything to do with it. I can find other work that is worth doing.

which they're actively tying to foist upon our trade

99% of the electrical contractors around here won't touch CSST bonding. They didn't install the stuff, they don't want to be responsible for even touching it.

exactly

~RJ~

 

[Jamesco]

Yes, the "load" end of each section of CSST is bonded via the EGC of the appliance's power supply.

The concern is that the "line" end of the CSST runs may be energized by a lightning strike nearby.

By bonding the gas supply line, we minimize the likelihood of such a strike causing current on the CSST.

Exactly.

In fact NEC 250.104(B) doesn't even mention the bonding is for lightning protection. Let alone CSST gas piping. The section has to do with the circuit possibly energizing the gas piping.
Though there is the informational note #2 to check the National Fuel Gas Code.

A new section needs to added to the NEC For bonding CSST at the point of entry to the building structure. Or immediately on the inside.

At least in most of my state the mains gas line is no longer metallic as well as the branch to the house. A metallic riser gas pipe drops down from the gas meter, maybe a couple of feet below grade, with a short 90 on the end. The non metallic gas line attaches to the riser. The old days of black iron gas pipe lines buried in the earth have been long gone for years.

So there is a short metallic riser stuck in the earth 2' or so that connects to a metallic gas meter, with a short piece of black iron pipe that connects to a termination fitting at the house. Inside the house is where the CSST connection is made by the CSST connector.

The ground clamp is installed outside the house clamped around the black iron pipe nipple.

See page 31 for a picture of the termination fitting. See page 6 for bonding of CSST.
https://www.midamericanenergy.com/content/pdf/gas_srv_manual_2018.pdf




.

 

[Jamesco]

Originally Posted by kwired

Yea for IFGC, I am not a gas piping installer, let the installer run his own bonding wire to a terminal on the inter system bonding termination, or to the GEC just don't cut it and compromise the electrical install, it is what it is there for - other systems even though some think it is only for communications it probably should be for any other systems.

agreed...


high liability, low profit....

You didn't furnish or install the CSST piping.

If a termination fitting is installed on the outside of the house connect the ground clamp to the black iron pipe nipple.


If a circuit breaker malfunctions and doesn't trip in the event of a serous arc fault, and causes a house fire, are you liable for the defective breaker?