Customers lie, part deux

[Coppersmith]

I'm building out a smoothie shop. Three-phase panel. The prints show a water heater, but give no specs. I ask the owner how big a breaker I need for it. "20 amps" he says. "Seems small for your needs", I say. "I'll ask the plumber", he says. A while later he texts me. "40 amps". OK, I think that sounds reasonable. But, I remember the three-phase panel. "Hmm, is it a single phase or three phase water heater?", I wonder. Rather than order the wrong breaker, I drive down there to see. I bring a spool of #8 and some 3/4" EMT. I'm either running 2 hots or three. Either way it fits in the 3/4". Yup, 40 alright. 40 gallons. Single-phase 25 amp breaker.:slaphead: Good thing I also have a roll of 10/2 MC.

 

[GoldDigger]

The dishwasher has its own heater and they don't wash their hands much, so 40 sounds fine to me.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[hbiss]

They didn't lie. That's what you get for asking a couple of people who have no clue. Might as well have asked the carpenter for his opinion too.

-Hal

 

[goldstar]

They didn't lie. That's what you get for asking a couple of people who have no clue. Might as well have asked the carpenter for his opinion too.

I agree. You're lucky you even got somewhat of an intelligent response. Most don't care what the amperage requirement is - they just want it included in the base price.

 

[roger]

They didn't lie. That's what you get for asking a couple of people who have no clue. Might as well have asked the carpenter for his opinion too.

-Hal

:thumbsup:

Roger

 

[Coppersmith]

They didn't lie. That's what you get for asking a couple of people who have no clue. Might as well have asked the carpenter for his opinion too. -Hal

I agree. You're lucky you even got somewhat of an intelligent response. Most don't care what the amperage requirement is - they just want it included in the base price.

:thumbsup:

Lie was meant more like mislead. (Lie makes a better headline tho ) Now fess up, you all have been misled by a client causing extra cost to you.

To be fair (to me), Owner has been intimately involved in the project including going over blueprints with me. He consulted his plumber, (the guy that installed the water heater) and gave me an answer. I would expect the correct answer in that situation.

 

[goldstar]

I'm always inclined to believe that a customer did not outright lie to me. They just don't have a clue, as was mentioned. I had a situation a few days ago (for a friend mind you) to install an outdoor receptacle. He said "there was power wiring running in that area". When I got there I found a run of completely sealed 3/4" PVC running along the house and then down into the dirt for a fish pond. It's tough to come prepared for something like that. Needless to say, the receptacle got installed somewhere else.

 

[Sierrasparky]

They lie, You are being too nice. They know what is going on but they don't care. In your case the customer probably never got the answer from the plumber and gave you one anyway. That answer was still a lie.

You folks are being to kind.
I would not call a customer a liar to their face, however I have no issue calling them one here.

 

[stevenje]

They didn't lie. That's what you get for asking a couple of people who have no clue. Might as well have asked the carpenter for his opinion too.

-Hal

After getting burned a few times in the past, I don't make a move until I get a cut sheet from the manufacture for whatever is being spec'd out for the project. It was amazing how many times the verbal information was completely wrong.

 

[Fulthrotl]

I'm building out a smoothie shop. Three-phase panel. The prints show a water heater, but give no specs. I ask the owner how big a breaker I need for it. "20 amps" he says. "Seems small for your needs", I say. "I'll ask the plumber", he says. A while later he texts me. "40 amps". OK, I think that sounds reasonable. But, I remember the three-phase panel. "Hmm, is it a single phase or three phase water heater?", I wonder. Rather than order the wrong breaker, I drive down there to see. I bring a spool of #8 and some 3/4" EMT. I'm either running 2 hots or three. Either way it fits in the 3/4". Yup, 40 alright. 40 gallons. Single-phase 25 amp breaker.:slaphead: Good thing I also have a roll of 10/2 MC.

well, i dunno what it's like driving around there, but
around here...... i'd grab a 2 pole, a 3 pole, a roll of
#6 that was laying in the shop, and some thinwall.
that'll get me there, no matter what size the thing is.
i can return the unused breaker, or throw it on the
shelf for the next time.

if i'm an hour and a half from home, and have to go
on an easter egg hunt for something, it becomes
not so much fun. if i get there, and have to leave for
an hour and a half, go to three places looking for a breaker,
and say bad words, it's not worth the grief.

 

[roger]

I don't make a move until I get a cut sheet from the manufacture for whatever is being spec'd out for the project. It was amazing how many times the verbal information was completely wrong.

Same here and if there is a problem after that it's change order / supplement time.

Roger

 

[jmellc]

I recall wiring a small restaurant. Owner was getting a pizza dough mixer second hand. He was a rude character to begin with and got mad when I questioned voltage/amperage of the mixer. He kept saying "it's 220", over and over. I got further info from his partner and called a local dealer about the model and power needs. Guy came over screaming at me that it was 220. I said "220 with a neutral or without, 220 15 amp, 20 amp, 30 amp or 50 amp, 220 double pole or 220 3 phase, straight blade or twistlock?". I am a mild mannered easygoing person, but he was dangerously close to getting a bender across his mouth. Later, he called the boss that we were loafing on the job and stretched out our lunch breaks. The partner spoke up on our behalf. A few weeks later, he absconded with all the money, cheating his partner.

This was an extreme case but I have seen the problem repeatedly. Always best to get info from the equipment supplier, and even then they may end up getting another model because one wasn't available. I've had to repull wire several times for increased power needs. I learned to always use 3/4 conduit instead of 1/2, price difference is slight. I have sometimes insisted on pulling wire when equipment arrives, to only do it once.

For as long as I can remember, drop in ovens or wall ovens were always 30 amp. Never, ever saw a larger one in a residence. Got a call back to one job that the oven needed a 40 amp ckt. Was some Bosch model and took a long time to find the nameplate. Sure enough, 40 amp. All ovens after that, I priced and installed for 40 amp.

 

[readydave8]

Story a counterman at SH told me a long time ago

Had a customer needing 25' of 220 wire

Evidently customer got rude when counterman started asking about amps and sizes

So counterman cut him 25' of 10/3

And never saw him again

 

[Coppersmith]

For as long as I can remember, drop in ovens or wall ovens were always 30 amp. Never, ever saw a larger one in a residence. Got a call back to one job that the oven needed a 40 amp ckt. Was some Bosch model and took a long time to find the nameplate. Sure enough, 40 amp. All ovens after that, I priced and installed for 40 amp.

A GC I routinely do work for asked me to go to a kitchen remodel he was doing and run a new circuit for a microwave. He was there to help fish the nice yellow #12 Romex down the wall and into a cabinet. A week later he calls and says the microwave is a 30 amp 240 volt beast and I need to come over and put the correct receptacle and wire in. When I inquired about payment for the change I was told there would be no additional payment because I should have checked the microwave specs before installing the circuit. Technically true, but I've never heard of a 240v 30 amp MW in a house and haven't seen one since. A little heads up would have been nice.

 

[growler]

The dishwasher has its own heater and they don't wash their hands much, so 40 sounds fine to me.

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40 gallon water heater sound fine to me if that's what they bought.

For food service the health department gets to decide what's really needed. I find that many people that open a small food service type of shop forget about health inspections.

 

[growler]

A GC I routinely do work for asked me to go to a kitchen remodel he was doing and run a new circuit for a microwave. He was there to help fish the nice yellow #12 Romex down the wall and into a cabinet. A week later he calls and says the microwave is a 30 amp 240 volt beast and I need to come over and put the correct receptacle and wire in. When I inquired about payment for the change I was told there would be no additional payment because I should have checked the microwave specs before installing the circuit. Technically true, but I've never heard of a 240v 30 amp MW in a house and haven't seen one since. A little heads up would have been nice.

Was the microwave on site when you installed the circuit? Did they give you a model number?

If he or the owner purchased the microwave after I installed the circuit they would be paying for for the change.

 

[Fulthrotl]

well, we all have customers that have alternative facts.

went to do a lighting cert. contractor has 300 sq ft room
with a light switch. no dimming, no occupancy sensor, a switch.

so i explain what it has to have, and leave. he calls a week later.
says it's all done correctly. i stop by again.

he put an occupancy sensor in the ceiling. didn't hook it up.
still and on - off switch on wall.

i call him up, and explain it needs to work, and it still doesn't dim.

a week goes by, and i get a text message:



as soon as i can read the notes, i'll get back to him.

 

[goldstar]

A GC I routinely do work for asked me to go to a kitchen remodel he was doing and run a new circuit for a microwave. He was there to help fish the nice yellow #12 Romex down the wall and into a cabinet. A week later he calls and says the microwave is a 30 amp 240 volt beast and I need to come over and put the correct receptacle and wire in. When I inquired about payment for the change I was told there would be no additional payment because I should have checked the microwave specs before installing the circuit. Technically true, but I've never heard of a 240v 30 amp MW in a house and haven't seen one since. A little heads up would have been nice.

I vaguely remember wiring a 240V microwave unit several years ago. I believe it was a GE Advantium oven/microwave, but I couldn't find any specs on it to post here.

 

[GoldDigger]

I vaguely remember wiring a 240V microwave unit several years ago. I believe it was a GE Advantium oven/microwave, but I couldn't find any specs on it to post here.

When you say "oven/microwave" do you mean that it has conventional resistance heating elements too? I would not call that a 240V microwave in the context of this thread.
The Advantium model I see described on the web has halogen incandescent heating elements to avoid warmup time and a convection fan in addition to the microwave portion. 208 or 240V at 30A.
I would call that an oven with microwave added rather than a souped up microwave!

 

[goldstar]

When you say "oven/microwave" do you mean that it has conventional resistance heating elements too? I would not call that a 240V microwave in the context of this thread.
The Advantium model I see described on the web has halogen incandescent heating elements to avoid warmup time and a convection fan in addition to the microwave portion. 208 or 240V at 30A.
I would call that an oven with microwave added rather than a souped up microwave!

Sorry. Maybe I wasn't clear on that. When we were renovating the kitchen I was told it was a microwave unit so I ran a # 12/2 to the MBP. Somewhere around the time when the appliances were being delivered I was told (by the HO) that it was an Advantium combination microwave-convection oven. At that point he gave me the specs and I had to rip out the 20A (2-wire) circuit and install a 30A (3-wire) circuit. I don't remember the model # and I couldn't find it on the Internet. Looking back the installation was in 2001. The whole point is that we never seem to get the correct info from HO's up front.