Cutler Hammer DF Breakers - High Temps = High Fail Rate

[JIANDO RC]

I would like to know if other contractors are having the same levels of frustrations and concerns with CH CH DF breakers. My company currently uses both Square D QO and Cutler Hammer CH series breakers. We have installed thousands of both brands over the last 2 years with very different results. The QO breakers perform just fine with very few call backs and when troubleshooting, there are rarely any signs of excessive heat. Cutler Hammer on the other hand has me very concerned. The breakers are as hot as an incandescent light bulb to the touch. There have been more than a few showing discoloration of the neutrals feeding off of the breaker. Measured with a laser device, the readings show a normal range of 90-100f on standard circuit breakers. The readings on the CAFI or DF breakers range anywhere from 105-148f. The same electricians are installing both brands in the same manner. Their work is top notch so I am skeptical that it is in the workmanship. The fail rate and call backs are especially high when the panels are mounted in the garage of a slab home as opposed to basement installs.

Clamp on neutrals have the highest temps and fail rates over the pigtail design btw.

 

[ptonsparky]

The clamp on neutral connection is not good? Do a FOP test across the neutral connections. I don’t use anywhere near the amount of breakers you are using but high temperatures would get that test and a thermal image if possible.

 

[ramsy]

We get similar questions or complaints against technically-demanding equipment regularly on this forum.

Most complainers are production shops, and other contractors who can't understand why their installers are hitting a wall on these projects with AFCI, GCFI, Security, or Wireless device setups w/ tech support.

Without local language skills, able to interrogate tech support, many of the most valuable production laborers are rarely able to determine if simple breaker updates are available, much less setup high-tech devices from instruction manuals.

I understand why hiring locals is undesirable for several reasons, and how justifying such problematic expenses, and deleterious delinquents, makes no sense for permanent production payrolls.

However, when mastery of the language is not available in house, the issue is not always with equipment.

When they can't find it on the internet, labor shops must learn to outsource tasks that demand language skills or technical experience, or at least have a capable service shop on call.

 

[hillbilly1]

I've had major heat issues with first generation Siemens Afci bolt on breakers, they replaced them under warranty, appeared to fix the problem. I just replaced some QO's that were giving trouble, they were warm, with no load, no wire discoloration though. Have not dealt with any CH afci's yet.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

UL 489, paragraph 7.1. 4.1. 6 states “The maximum temperature on handles, knobs, and other surfaces subject to user contact during normal operation shall not exceed 60 °C (140 °F) on metallic and 85 °C (185 °F) on nonmetallic surfaces.

I would expect that all of the parts that you measured the temperature on were nonmetallic surfaces, so those breakers are operating within the temperature range permitted by the product standard.

 

[kwired]

UL 489, paragraph 7.1. 4.1. 6 states “The maximum temperature on handles, knobs, and other surfaces subject to user contact during normal operation shall not exceed 60 °C (140 °F) on metallic and 85 °C (185 °F) on nonmetallic surfaces.

I would expect that all of the parts that you measured the temperature on were nonmetallic surfaces, so those breakers are operating within the temperature range permitted by the product standard.

Many not used to seeing much for heat in dwelling panels other than sometimes on breakers for AC, electric space heating, or other fairly continuous load like maybe a pool pump. If some these not used to it do much work in non dwellings where there are typically more circuits loaded fairly continuously they think something is wrong when they feel that heat, but it is normal. The closer the load runs to the breaker rating the "hotter" that breaker should be because it detects overload conditions via thermal activity.

 

[ptonsparky]

So does operating within the temperature range mean the breakers will not have a shortened life expectancy?

 

[JIANDO RC]

I should have specified that the temp reading is on the plastic casing between the throw and the termination screws. That seems to be the hottest external point. Phone calls to Cutler Hammer tech support are met with “the equipment should be able to operate up to 178°f. Not sure what the internal temps are within the sealed breaker but I think it is logical to assume that it could only be hotter than what I am reading.

 

[gsurace]

Figured I would just piggy back on this thread versus starting another one because of the similar topic but I was just told by a hot tub technician that my last install using a Cutler-Hammer Type CH GFCI breaker (that is randomly tripping) is getting too hot. When I showed up to do the install, there was a note in with the tub to use either a Square D or Midwest GFCI spa panel. As much as I did not want to believe it and pressed on with the spa panel that I brought with me, it appears to be the case. We isolated all the internal components and that did not solve the issue. It kept tripping anywhere from 1 - 3 days later, never instantly.

In my defense (if anyone wishes to hear!) I needed a 40 amp GFCI spa panel which is not readily available in my area so I couldn't just grab a new one that day. The one I had with me was special order.