cutting in recessed lights without access above how do you?

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KVA said:
Again i own the hole saw and have used it. And again in this case the plaster was very brittle. If your an electrician and you don't the proper tools to cut holes out for lights you should rethink your career.

Some guys like to take risks in exchange for getting done quicker. I'm the opposite I rather make sure no damage is done and be alittle slower to ensure a great job. Working with old plaster is like a wood worker working with old expensive wood that needs to be handled with hand tools not power tools.
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My customer today was concerned about me putting recessed lights in because the last guy came and knocked holes all over and pretty much destroyed the entire ceiling. I showed her the holesaw and dust bowl and the rest was history. Apparently the last guy did the same thing that you do, trying to cut them in by hand, and there were chips and straight edges outside the can EVERYWHERE. They looked horrible. This was just a plaster layer, so no wood/lathe to contend with, but it's the same result either way. Usually I wouldn't think much of it, and I really never take progress pictures on such a simple stupid job, but her concern made me think of this thread.

Anyway, 4 went in without a hitch, EXTREMELY brittle plaster...apparently. Of course I didn't notice because I didn't try cutting them in by hand. :happysad:

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I kindly challenge you to cut a more perfect hole in to plaster, by hand.
 
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svh19044 said:
My customer today was concerned about me putting recessed lights in because the last guy came and knocked holes all over and pretty much destroyed the entire ceiling. I showed her the holesaw and dust bowl and the rest was history. Apparently the last guy did the same thing that you do, trying to cut them in by hand, and there were chips and straight edges outside the can EVERYWHERE. They looked horrible. This was just a plaster layer, so no wood/lathe to contend with, but it's the same result either way. Usually I wouldn't think much of it, and I really never take progress pictures on such a simple stupid job, but her concern made me think of this thread.

Anyway, 4 went in without a hitch, EXTREMELY brittle plaster...apparently. Of course I didn't notice because I didn't try cutting them in by hand. :happysad:

IMAG0733.jpg

IMAG0731.jpg

IMAG0728.jpg

IMAG0735.jpg

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I kindly challenge you to cut a more perfect hole in to plaster, by hand.
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Is there time limit to the challenge:D

Sure looks like drywall in the third picture, or is it gypsum board with plaster over it - I run into that occasionally seemed to be common in 1950's.
 
kwired said:
Is there time limit to the challenge:D

Sure looks like drywall in the third picture, or is it gypsum board with plaster over it - I run into that occasionally seemed to be common in 1950's.
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Gypsum with plaster, Which is usually more brittle do to how thin the plaster layer is, and hell, I would even accept the challenge with no time limit!:D

The point to KVA is that it is just a ridiculous statement that he could do it more carefully by hand.
 
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svh19044 said:
Gypsum with plaster, Which is usually more brittle do to how thin the plaster layer is, and hell, I would even accept the challenge with no time limit!:D

The point to KVA is that it is just a ridiculous statement that he could do it more carefully by hand.
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I have to agree with KVA.

I never use power tools to cut into a wall or ceiling,there are way too many risks.

There could be any number of things behind the Sheetrock that you wouldn't know until it was too late.

You may think your doing it right but one day when you do that and you hit a wire,gas pipe,pluming pipe ETC ETC you will be very sorry.

When your stuck patching because there was a cat or a stud where you put your hole you will be very sorry.

I hit a CSST gas pipe that was just laying on the sheet rock with a roto zip one time,learned my lesson the hard way.
 
robwire said:
I have to agree with KVA.

I never use power tools to cut into a wall or ceiling,there are way too many risks.

There could be any number of things behind the Sheetrock that you wouldn't know until it was too late.

You may think your doing it right but one day when you do that and you hit a wire,gas pipe,pluming pipe ETC ETC you will be very sorry.

When your stuck patching because there was a cat or a stud where you put your hole you will be very sorry.

I hit a CSST gas pipe that was just laying on the sheet rock with a roto zip one time,learned my lesson the hard way.
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Two different arguments for cutting in by hand, his was a nicer hole/less chance of the plaster cracking.

Now look at the insulation that was packed tight against the ceiling, and the depth of the hole saw. I didn't even cut in to the insulation, so the last thing to be worried about is a pipe laying against the ceiling. My lightolier hole saw kit also only cuts about 5/8" deep before bottoming out.

Now if cutting by hand and you hit something, you have to patch. Cutting in with a hole saw leaves you a perfect patch piece, and you still have to patch. No difference.

As to not using power tools to cut in anything, I don't fear technology, I embrace it.
 
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If you hit CSST gas line with a roto zip you have a good chance of penetrating all the way through.

If you hit same gas tubing with hand saw you may not penetrate all the way through tubing but there is good chance there is still enough damage it needs repaired.
 
I'll save all this info for future work as the HO hasn't got back to me. Apparently my estimate scared her off. She was wanting to know how quick I could get to it when I looked at the job, but now, nothing back from her.
I think most HO think "what's the big deal, just stick them up in the ceiling, screw on a switch, done.:happyno: Why should it be that much?"
 
svh19044 said:
Two different arguments for cutting in by hand, his was a nicer hole/less chance of the plaster cracking.

Now look at the insulation that was packed tight against the ceiling, and the depth of the hole saw. I didn't even cut in to the insulation, so the last thing to be worried about is a pipe laying against the ceiling. My lightolier hole saw kit also only cuts about 5/8" deep before bottoming out.

Now if cutting by hand and you hit something, you have to patch. Cutting in with a hole saw leaves you a perfect patch piece, and you still have to patch. No difference.

As to not using power tools to cut in anything, I don't fear technology, I embrace it.
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And what do you do it you make that hole and find out that there is a pipe,a vent,a peice of wood,etc, etc, there and now the can won't fit?
 
robwire said:
And what do you do it you make that hole and find out that there is a pipe,a vent,a peice of wood,etc, etc, there and now the can won't fit?
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I'm guessing it would be the same thing that you would do if you were cutting it in by hand???? I believe that is what i said in the last post that you quoted....Does cutting it in by hand magically make obstructions disappear? Or am I missing something...

Now before cutting the entire hole, I do stick a screwdriver through the pilot hole to check for obstructions, just as I imagine that one would do if cutting it in by hand. Obviously this doesn't get anything laying against the ceiling, which in either scenario, doesn't change the outcome.
 
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Little Bill said:
I'll save all this info for future work as the HO hasn't got back to me. Apparently my estimate scared her off. She was wanting to know how quick I could get to it when I looked at the job, but now, nothing back from her.
I think most HO think "what's the big deal, just stick them up in the ceiling, screw on a switch, done.:happyno: Why should it be that much?"
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Sorry she hasn't called you back.
Actually she got back in touch with me.............. and even with the travel time, putting me and a helper up in a 5 star hotel for a few days with a food allowance......................

Kidding aside........yeah burns my bunns too when people shop around and don't even give a followup call to let you know where they stand ...............


Hang in there.
 
Little Bill said:
I'll save all this info for future work as the HO hasn't got back to me. Apparently my estimate scared her off. She was wanting to know how quick I could get to it when I looked at the job, but now, nothing back from her.
I think most HO think "what's the big deal, just stick them up in the ceiling, screw on a switch, done.:happyno: Why should it be that much?"
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When I was learning the trade, my boss would usually get about $185 per can. Usually we were working in some affluent neighborhoods, so maybe that's the difference, but it seems like every time I have a customer that wants recessed lights, even if I quote them $100 per can they are shocked at how much it is.

I think most people think, "One fixture to light the whole room costs $200, so 6 recessed lights to light the same room should cost $200, or at the most $400."
 
svh19044 said:
I'm guessing it would be the same thing that you would do if you were cutting it in by hand???? I believe that is what i said in the last post that you quoted....Does cutting it in by hand magically make obstructions disappear? Or am I missing something...

Now before cutting the entire hole, I do stick a screwdriver through the pilot hole to check for obstructions, just as I imagine that one would do if cutting it in by hand. Obviously this doesn't get anything laying against the ceiling, which in either scenario, doesn't change the outcome.
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When your cutting in by hand you can feel things and shift your hole over to avoid the obstruction usually before its too late.
 
I use the grit saw, but I also have my pal See Snake with me if I don't have access to the space above me.

All you have to do is drill a hole, an inch or inch and a half, and let snaky out of his bag, stick his head through the hole and watch the screen in his butt.

Snaky comes with a little mirror so you can use him like a periscope, a nice option for this type of work.

http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/SeeSnake-micro

Then, if I see an obstacle I can plan accordingly. I got the first version for $100. The image is not as clear as I would like, but it was still the best 100 bucks I have ever spent on gadget type tools.

I would like to see these with a bit better image, plus a place to plug in a thumb drive so you could record a video and watch it over, or on your computer.
 
K8MHZ said:
I use the grit saw, but I also have my pal See Snake with me if I don't have access to the space above me.

All you have to do is drill a hole, an inch or inch and a half, and let snaky out of his bag, stick his head through the hole and watch the screen in his butt.

Snaky comes with a little mirror so you can use him like a periscope, a nice option for this type of work.

http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/SeeSnake-micro

Then, if I see an obstacle I can plan accordingly. I got the first version for $100. The image is not as clear as I would like, but it was still the best 100 bucks I have ever spent on gadget type tools.

I would like to see these with a bit better image, plus a place to plug in a thumb drive so you could record a video and watch it over, or on your computer.
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We use Milwaukee on some trucks, Rigid on others. The Milwaukee camera's are a slight improvement over the Rigid, minus the add-ons like the mirror, but picture quality is still the same. I don't find any issues with the actual image, especially for the price of these things. It just takes a little to play with the light adjustment and clean the lens off.

Either way, they are great. Everyone that does old work should have one.
 
svh19044 said:
Shift your hole over in a circular hole???? So are the lights all out of line?
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If a situation where they need lined up you check for obstacles before cutting the entire cutout, no matter what you are cutting hole with. If all you have cut is a small hole to explore for obstacles - you have a hole much easier to patch if it needs to be abandoned.
 
ritelec said:
Sorry she hasn't called you back.
Actually she got back in touch with me.............. and even with the travel time, putting me and a helper up in a 5 star hotel for a few days with a food allowance......................

Kidding aside........yeah burns my bunns too when people shop around and don't even give a followup call to let you know where they stand ...............




Hang in there.
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I went as far as sending her two emails after the one I sent with the estimate. In the last one, I asked if she had any questions about the estimate. Nothing....no reply. I would rather her just say "you're too high" and be done with it.

jaylectricity said:
When I was learning the trade, my boss would usually get about $185 per can. Usually we were working in some affluent neighborhoods, so maybe that's the difference, but it seems like every time I have a customer that wants recessed lights, even if I quote them $100 per can they are shocked at how much it is.

I think most people think, "One fixture to light the whole room costs $200, so 6 recessed lights to light the same room should cost $200, or at the most $400."
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They don't seem to have a problem with new granite counter tops, cabinets, vaulted ceiling redo etc. or even the swimming pool outside. They also have about the only insurance company in their small town. My price wasn't $100 per can and not as much as $185 per can so I thought it was fair, if not low.

kwired said:
If a situation where they need lined up you check for obstacles before cutting the entire cutout, no matter what you are cutting hole with. If all you have cut is a small hole to explore for obstacles - you have a hole much easier to patch if it needs to be abandoned.
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A Klein off-set screwdriver works well for a probe through a 1/4" or smaller hole. Even a piece of #12 wire bent 90 deg, stick it in the hole and maneuver it up and in, spin it 360 to check for obstacles.
 
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