CUTTING WALL PLATES TO FIT

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: CUTTING WALL PLATES TO FIT

Greg,
The section in question applies to "electrical equipment" not "equipment". There is no code definition of "electrical equipment" but in my opinion, that term applies only to something that has an electrical as opposed to a physical function. Even if the term "electrical equipment" was to include cover plates, I still see no violation because the modified plate will not adversely affect the safe operation and will not have any real effect on the strength of the cover plate.
Don

 

[bennie]

Re: CUTTING WALL PLATES TO FIT

Most of the builders I know, in this area, will not go for cutting plates, under any circumstances. The owners will not go for it on pre-sold homes.

When a home inspector writes the infraction, it becomes a part of the disclosure to the lender.

My daugnter is picky on her pre-sold homes, and will prevent the modification of wall plates.

A buyer deserves a full plate

 

[ryan_618]

Re: CUTTING WALL PLATES TO FIT

I also believe a buyer deserves a full crown molding or door molding. A wall plate is not a pretty thing to look at, molding is. I say cut the plate...there is no violation and it looks better than a notched piece of molding.

 

[bennie]

Re: CUTTING WALL PLATES TO FIT

I am sorry, but there is no excuse for cutting wall plates, or butchering the moulding.

 

[gregory]

Re: CUTTING WALL PLATES TO FIT

Don
I believe that a switch plate cut and wood or wall paper overlapping an open box is a fire hazard. I also believe that a switch plate is electrical equipment as is conduit fittings, boxes and most everything listed in the electrical supply manuals. as soon as you energize the circuit a possibility of a fire hazard exists, I would call this unsafe operation. I, like quiet a few of the posts, at the very least, think that this is shoddy workmanship.

 

[Guest]

Re: CUTTING WALL PLATES TO FIT

[...hmmmm...awwt wondering...why aren't wall plates more fire resistant?...]

 

[bennie]

Re: CUTTING WALL PLATES TO FIT

The plates are for keeping the sparks inside the box, and not igniting the carpet.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: CUTTING WALL PLATES TO FIT

greg,
I don't see any wood or wall paper overlapping this box. The box is not covered by the wood trim, it is just too close for the full sized plate to be installed. While this type of installation should not be the norm, sometimes things are missed in the construction phase or the trim size is changed after the fact. If the trim is covering the box, I see a problem in installing the device, but as long as the complete box opening is not obstructed, I see no problem cutting the plate. I guess if the inspector red tagged it, you could always install a handy box cover, which would be almost the same size as the box opening and should fit.
Don

 

[gregory]

Re: CUTTING WALL PLATES TO FIT

Don
I like your idea of using a handy box plate. I can see situation where you have 2 doors close together and it is better to have the switch at the door location rather than away from it in a different location. I like the spell check that has been added to the reply box. very nice!!

 

[tim]

Re: CUTTING WALL PLATES TO FIT

I would hate to have you for an inspector bennie. One plate cut a quarter of an inch isn't going to hurt a thing. It won't even be noticed by most people. Common sense on the inspectors part should come into play. I really can't believe this much space has been devoted to this topic.

 

[bennie]

Re: CUTTING WALL PLATES TO FIT

Tim: Raising the box 1/4 inch also does not hurt anything.

A plate, being cut, is a sign of a mistake. It will cause the buyer to question what else was a mistake. Wait until the owner tries to install a nice ceramic decorator plate.

 

[big jim]

Re: CUTTING WALL PLATES TO FIT

I think there is an important distinction between old and new work. Having to cut a plate in a new install implies a mistake, period. I know it would show up on my punchlist if I were the customer. When I looked at a 45 year old house last summer, I wasn't at all concerned that a plate in the kitchen had been trimmed 1/4" because the new cabinets lined up a little different on the plaster wall. I did worry when I opened the FPE panel and a stab-loc fell out.
.As to that fancy creamic wall plate, well I'd just lay it on my wet saw and trim it too.

 

[hurk27]

Re: CUTTING WALL PLATES TO FIT

I too don't like to see a cut plate but what are we suppose to do when a home owner changes the lay out or decides to install a chair rail that is to close to the switches? or a kitchen cabinet layout that gets changed to allow for a pantry that is to close to a counter receptacle?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: CUTTING WALL PLATES TO FIT

A builder who doesn't make any mistakes is a builder who is not building. Things happen and in this case the trim interferes with the cover plate. There are a number of solutions, replace the trim, move the box, use a handy box cover, or trim the plate. The most reasonable solution is to trim the plate.
Don

 

[bennie]

Re: CUTTING WALL PLATES TO FIT

I would not approve cutting a wall plate, however I let it slide as long as everyone with investment was notified by the disclosure of an existing code violation.

Cutting a plate is a violation of the listing instructions, which require the plate to cover the entire opening and to seat on the finished wall surface, or flush with the box if extended far enough.

A wall plate with 1/4" removed will not seat flat on a wall surface. There will be almost a 1/8" gap. This gap will be against the wood moulding, exposing the combustible material to the active components in the box.

When the existance of this infraction is included on the real estate documents, it usually gets corrected.

 

[bennie]

Re: CUTTING WALL PLATES TO FIT

I once had the stats from the NFPA, regarding the number of home fires starting in switch and receptacle boxes, where the wood stud or other material was the first thing ignited.

If I can find them, I will post them. I think this will remove any controversy about cutting the plates.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: CUTTING WALL PLATES TO FIT

The finished wall surface includes the face of the trim (chair rail, casing, etc.). When the wall plate is cut to the shape of the irregular surface, one is seating the cover plate to the surface.

314.20 tells me that my box must be flush, or extend, if the surface is combustible. Installing an extension ring brings out the "front" of the set back box.

Bennie, would you violate a plastic cover plate installed on interior stucco or brick or plaster or topped drywall or barn wood where the surface is deeply textured? By your logic, above, the plate cannot be fit to the surface without a listing violation, and the gap on the untrimmed plate caused by the texture is a code violation. If the gaps are filled with caulk, is the caulk "listed" for the purpose? IMHO, these are canards.

I find it interesting that 406.8(E) is the only place that actually talks about the contact of the plate with the wall surface.

314.20 was clarified as illustrated by the explanatory text included in the 2002 NEC Handbook:

The addition of the terms surface and with a surface of makes it clear that the requirements of this section apply only to the construction of the surface of wall. . .not to the structure or subsurface of the wall. . .

 

[Guest]

Re: CUTTING WALL PLATES TO FIT

Originally posted by bennie:
I once had the stats from the NFPA, regarding the number of home fires starting in switch and receptacle boxes, where the wood stud or other material was the first thing ignited.<snip>

OK, Bennie, I'm with you. For technical & aesthetic reasons the switch plate should not be cut.

Now I'm wondering why switch boxes are not anaerobic?

You stated that there has not been much innovation in the past 50-years. Would anaerobic stitch boxes be a good start? 50-years ago it might have been unforeseen but now that you have the stats would it be worth going to an anaerobic box system? There would be no fuel for the fire.

Main Entry: an?aer?o?bic
Pronunciation: "a-n&-'rO-bik; "an-"a(-&)-, -"e(-&)-
Function: adjective
Date: circa 1881
1 a : living, active, occurring, or existing in the absence of free oxygen <anaerobic respiration> b : of, relating to, or being activity in which the body incurs an oxygen debt <anaerobic exercise>
2 : relating to or induced by anaerobes
- an?aer?o?bi?cal?ly /-bi-k(&-)lE/ adverb

PS: Probably more realistic to suggest hermetically sealed.

Main Entry: her?met?ic
Pronunciation: (")h&r-'me-tik
Variant(s): also her?met?i?cal /-ti-k&l/
Function: adjective
Etymology: Medieval Latin hermeticus, from Hermet-, Hermes Trismegistus
Date: 1605
1 often capitalized a : of or relating to the Gnostic writings or teachings arising in the first three centuries A.D. and attributed to Hermes Trismegistus b : relating to or characterized by occultism or abstruseness : RECONDITE
2 [from the belief that Hermes Trismegistus invented a magic seal to keep vessels airtight] a : AIRTIGHT <hermetic seal> b : impervious to external influence <trapped inside the hermetic military machine -- Jack Newfield> c : RECLUSE, SOLITARY <leads a hermetic life>
- her?met?i?cal?ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb

Definitions from http://www.mirriam-webster.com

[ September 18, 2003, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]