Damamged THHN

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ryan_618

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I know that the outer nylon jacket of a THHN conductor is for ease of installation only, and does not add anything of importance to the conductor. I have searched and searched on the net, but haven't been able to find that printed anywhere, either from UL or a manufacturer.

Does anybody have this in writing?
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
I thought I found something of that nature in regards to Southwire's No-Lube.

I'll have to dig for it.
 

rbalex

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I believe it is buried somewhere in ANSI/NEMA WC 70-1999/ICEA S-95-658-1999 and I believe the key is that it is a ?jacket? used for mechanical rather than electrical purposes. Minor damage to jackets is not considered to violate the electrical integrity of the cable.
 
Insulation

Insulation

ryan_618 said:
I know that the outer nylon jacket of a THHN conductor is for ease of installation only, and does not add anything of importance to the conductor. I have searched and searched on the net, but haven't been able to find that printed anywhere, either from UL or a manufacturer.

Does anybody have this in writing?

It is true that the outer Polyamid 6.6(DuPont tradename: Nylon) jacket extrusion is provided for mechanical protection, chemical resistance and improved friction coefficiency, but the insutlation value is measured as a composite of the thermoplastic PVC and the Polyamid 6.6 materials.

The damage of the outer material should be considered as a compromised insulation.
 

captaincrab55

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
ryan_618 said:
I know that the outer nylon jacket of a THHN conductor is for ease of installation only, and does not add anything of importance to the conductor. I have searched and searched on the net, but haven't been able to find that printed anywhere, either from UL or a manufacturer.

Does anybody have this in writing?
Back in 1974 my instructor taught us that the outer clear jacket is what made THHN gasoline and oil resistant....
 

iwire

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When the info about this subject from UL was previously posted I recall that UL removed the plastic outer covering before performing dielectric tests.

I also recall they said the plastic was only providing mechanical and....

captaincrab55 said:
Back in 1974 my instructor taught us that the outer clear jacket is what made THHN gasoline and oil resistant....


...chemical protection. :)
 

jim dungar

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weressl said:
The damage of the outer material should be considered as a compromised insulation.

Do you have proof for such a blatant statement?

According to a 1997 book I have from Southwire: "Some nonshielded cables may have a jacket that is not integral to the cable dielectric."

And: "Jackets, also called sheaths, serve several purposes...They may act as electrical insulation when used over shields or armor...They may also protect the characteristics of the underlying insulation. For example, a thin nylon jacket over PVC enhances the abrasion and fluid resistance of a 600V cable"

So, we need to know why the nylon is there (hence the OP) before we can say its absence is detrimental.
 

roger

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Excerpt from an old IAEI meeting;

When Gil visited us previously, he made a splash by noting that the transparent nylon covering THHN/THWN, while arguably making them sexy compared to THW, is not required to maintain the conductor's dielectric properties. Therefore, if in the course of installation the nylon suffers the odd nick, or unsightly run, or even is scraped off, the conductor is fine so long as the insulation underneath remains intact. Learning this much, we had to have Dave over for more of the story.

Unless conductors are exposed to gasoline or oil, or submerged for an extended period we're talking many months--the nylon covering offers strictly a mechanical protection, Dave explained, with the underlying PVC supplying the dielectric properties as Gil had told us. The nylon actually is stripped away for the UL acceptance test. Therefore, if the nylon is scraped off, but the plastic underneath is intact, an appropriate response usually is "Good; it's done its job," and a green tag.

It's not just the nylon covering on THHN/THWN, we learned, but the sheaths on cable assemblies also often are optional. A cable installer nicked the sheath of a nonmetallic cable installed in a dry indoor location, and responded in a curious way: he turned the cable so the nick faced toward the wall. Not a bad response, Dave opined (while not wholeheartedly endorsing); this way, people glancing at it in passing wouldn't be unnecessarily concerned.
You may detect from this that Dave is quite an engaging speaker; moreover he's one with 19 years' product and Code experience under his belt to give plenty of clout to the information.

Damage is not necessarily limited solely to cable sheaths, of course. If a cable appears damaged, Dave recommends cutting a window in the sheath so you can examine the conductor insulation beneath. If that's good, you can "reinstall the window."

What should you do when you do want to, or need to, repair a cable sheath? Vinyl tape does just fine, Dave said, except in a wet location, and self-sealing mastic tape does even better. Best is a layer of self-fusing tape covered by a layer of vinyl. It even can be used outdoors on UF or SE cable, so long as it is not buried. For that, you need the sealing coverings that come with a Listed underground splice kit.
Art asked whether NM or SE cable repaired in this way still meets the UL standard. Dave commented that it is tough to say. There needs to be a dialogue between the manufacturer, AHJ, and installer. A qualified installer of repair materials should be able to make a repair acceptable to the AHJ, and Southwire's warranty will remain in effect. "Qualified?" Jim Wooten asked. "Someone who has received certified training in using the material, either in an apprenticeship class, or continuing education such as is offered by tape manufacturers." Even damaged Medium Voltage cable remains warrantied, so long as the shielded jacket, which is there for mechanical protection like that of MC, is fixed using a Listed repair kit installed by a qualified person.

We hope to co-sponsor such a class with 3M or Raychem or some such organization.

Roger
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
From Southwire:


How do you choose?
Southwire Type THHN or THWN-2 conductors carry a polyvinyl chloride (PVC) insulation that’s protected by a nylon jacket. The nylon jacket offers good resistance to oil and gasoline. But if you nick the nylon during installation, you get a couple of problems. First, the PVC insulation can suffer from exposure to chlorine and other chemicals commonly used in waste-water treatment. The exposure to chemicals is especially critical when you pull THHN into conduit, because any barbs left in the conduit can cut into the nylon jacket – and a lot of THHN goes into conduit.
RHH/RHW-2 and XHHW are showing up as alternatives to THHN in acidic environments for two reasons: They both use cross-linked polyethylene (XLPE) insulation rather than PVC. Second, they both offer more insulation thickness than THHN. XHHW offers a little more thickness, RHH/RHW offers quite a bit more. In general, in the demanding waste-water treatment environment, the thicker the insulation, the better off you are.
 

iwire

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Massachusetts
mdshunk said:
The exposure to chemicals is especially critical when you pull THHN into conduit, because any barbs left in the conduit can cut into the nylon jacket ? and a lot of THHN goes into conduit.[/I]

Glad they cleared that up. :grin:
 

roger

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I guess I missed where Ryan was talking about installations in "waste water treatment facilities".

For the record, my post was also from Southwire via Dave Mercier.

Roger
 

mdshunk

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Location
Right here.
roger said:
I guess I missed where Ryan was talking about installations in "waste water treatment facilities".
He's not, but that was the best I could come up with related to the topic. There's very little on the topic of damaged nylon, and what you're to do about it. The document I pulled my quote from did recommend testing after installation, in any event. Not sure why you'd choose to respond that way, since you're a moderator and all.
 

roger

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mdshunk said:
He's not, but that was the best I could come up with related to the topic. There's very little on the topic of damaged nylon, and what you're to do about it. The document I pulled my quote from did recommend testing after installation, in any event.

Yet in Dave's speech he explains, as Bob mentioned, that the Nylon jacket is removed for the UL acceptance test.


mdshunk said:
Not sure why you'd choose to respond that way, since you're a moderator and all.

And what was wrong with my response Moderator or not?

I made a point to say I didn't see where the OP was asking about a specific application, i.e. chemical submersion, if that bothered you I'm sorry. :rolleyes:

Roger
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
roger said:
And what was wrong with my response Moderator or not?

I made a point to say I didn't see where the OP was asking about a specific application, i.e. chemical submersion, if that bothered you I'm sorry. :rolleyes:
A moderator is not allowed to show even a hint of sarcasm in his post. That's one of my rules I just made up. I might have to start deleting your posts if you keep it up. ;)
 

roger

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mdshunk said:
A moderator is not allowed to show even a hint of sarcasm in his post. That's one of my rules I just made up. I might have to start deleting your posts if you keep it up. ;)


Ohhh! :)

Roger
 
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