Damp Location definition

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Cletis

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I"m having problems here with inspectors determining what damp location is related to wiring in outside gazebos, pergolas, and basements. The definition is very ambiguous and needs to be redefined as to stop this. I get different decisions from different inspectors on what this means as whether to run NM, PVC, or UF . I'd rather make it less subjective and know which type of method I need to install whichever direction and county we work in.

Location, Damp. Locations protected from weather and not subject to saturation with water or other liquids but subject to moderate degrees of moisture. Examples of such locations include partially protected locations under canopies, marquees, roofed open porches, and like locations, and interior locations subject to moderate degrees of moisture, such as some basements, some barns, and some coldstorage warehouses.

Any thoughts on how to reword this ?
 
Kidding aside I don't see anyway to make the definition of damp location bullet proof. It is always going to be subject to interpretation just like 'subject to physical damage' and 'nearest the point of entrance' are.
 
Cletis said:
I"m having problems here with inspectors determining what damp location is related to wiring in outside gazebos, pergolas, and basements. The definition is very ambiguous and needs to be redefined as to stop this. I get different decisions from different inspectors on what this means as whether to run NM, PVC, or UF . I'd rather make it less subjective and know which type of method I need to install whichever direction and county we work in.

Location, Damp. Locations protected from weather and not subject to saturation with water or other liquids but subject to moderate degrees of moisture. Examples of such locations include partially protected locations under canopies, marquees, roofed open porches, and like locations, and interior locations subject to moderate degrees of moisture, such as some basements, some barns, and some coldstorage warehouses.

Any thoughts on how to reword this ?
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You mention three different wiring methods, two of which can be used for dry, damp or wet locations, the third is dry only. Outside of the NM cable the others could be used no matter what. What conditions do you have at your installation that assure it will remain dry (which is possibly a little better defined)if you wanted to use NM cable?
 
kwired said:
You mention three different wiring methods, two of which can be used for dry, damp or wet locations, the third is dry only. Outside of the NM cable the others could be used no matter what. What conditions do you have at your installation that assure it will remain dry (which is possibly a little better defined)if you wanted to use NM cable?
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It is just kind of annoying. I'm trying to compete to win jobs and increase profit and always wondering which inspector is going to show and how they interpret damp location is just becoming annoying. According to the above, really, an inspector can make us do damp location wiring for all basements, above porches in soffits, garages, etc.. around here most of that is in NM on inspected and uninspected work, but a couple other counties they sometimes let us do that and sometimes not. Sure, I can just run UF everywhere I suppose but that stuff is not fun to work with, a bit higher in price, and definately higher in labor to work with. On top of that you got your boxes to run damp or dry. There has to be a better way to word this.
 
Cletis said:
It is just kind of annoying. I'm trying to compete to win jobs and increase profit and always wondering which inspector is going to show and how they interpret damp location is just becoming annoying. According to the above, really, an inspector can make us do damp location wiring for all basements, above porches in soffits, garages, etc.. around here most of that is in NM on inspected and uninspected work, but a couple other counties they sometimes let us do that and sometimes not. Sure, I can just run UF everywhere I suppose but that stuff is not fun to work with, a bit higher in price, and definately higher in labor to work with. On top of that you got your boxes to run damp or dry. There has to be a better way to word this.
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If there is differences in interpretation within the same AHJ, I'd be complaining about not having consistency within the AHJ. It shouldn't matter who comes out to inspect, they should all be on same page if they work for same AHJ. JMO.
 
It's pretty easy to me to determine. Some basements literally have water drain into them from the outside by design. I've seen rain water spouts directly drain onto the slab which feeds into a larger drain. That's a damp location. Anything outdoors is also a damp location. What else are you looking for? If you could open it up at any time of the year and find moisture it's a damp location. Hopefully you can call up the AHJ and complain and they can instruct their inspectors to have uniformity.
 
scrypps said:
If you could open it up at any time of the year and find moisture it's a damp location. Hopefully you can call up the AHJ and complain and they can instruct their inspectors to have uniformity.
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A dry location can still have moisture present during abnormal conditions. The art 100 definition give us an example of a building under construction.
 
The area used to be defined by inspectors around here as damp was anything under a cover within 45 degrees of the over hang. so under a two foot eve would be a damp location to two feet down the wall at which time it would become a wet location. If that makes sense. Here's the problem with that, it's not an official answer. Also up under a gazebo roof, no matter how tall it was, is still a damp location (fog) as long as the walls are open.
 
cowboyjwc said:
The area used to be defined by inspectors around here as damp was anything under a cover within 45 degrees of the over hang. so under a two foot eve would be a damp location to two feet down the wall at which time it would become a wet location. If that makes sense. Here's the problem with that, it's not an official answer. Also up under a gazebo roof, no matter how tall it was, is still a damp location (fog) as long as the walls are open.
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Apparently fog can't find the area under the roof overhang:)

Severe thunderstorms might be kind of rare in your area as well, here we do get rain driven by 50+MPH winds quite often.
 
kwired said:
Apparently fog can't find the area under the roof overhang:)

Severe thunderstorms might be kind of rare in your area as well, here we do get rain driven by 50+MPH winds quite often.
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Thing is there's really no difference between wet and damp except in some of the light fixtures. So damp would still require bell type boxes and covers.
 
cowboyjwc said:
Thing is there's really no difference between wet and damp except in some of the light fixtures. So damp would still require bell type boxes and covers.
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Each area is so different in typical wiring methods.

Here it is very common to see dry location equipment in clearly damp locations.

Dry location SE connectors on the bottom of outdoor NEMA 3R meter sockets pretty much always.
 
iwire said:
Each area is so different in typical wiring methods.

Here it is very common to see dry location equipment in clearly damp locations.

Dry location SE connectors on the bottom of outdoor NEMA 3R meter sockets pretty much always.
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Your example there is common sense, but there are some that take things too literally sometimes.
 
scrypps said:
It's pretty easy to me to determine. Some basements literally have water drain into them from the outside by design. I've seen rain water spouts directly drain onto the slab which feeds into a larger drain. That's a damp location. Anything outdoors is also a damp location. What else are you looking for? If you could open it up at any time of the year and find moisture it's a damp location. Hopefully you can call up the AHJ and complain and they can instruct their inspectors to have uniformity.
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Ever been to louisianna in the summer? I bet you could stick a hydrometer in any wall inside the house and capture 90% humidity



kwired said:
A dry location can still have moisture present during abnormal conditions. The art 100 definition give us an example of a building under construction.
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I have a beef to pick with that definition too but thats for some other day



cowboyjwc said:
The area used to be defined by inspectors around here as damp was anything under a cover within 45 degrees of the over hang. so under a two foot eve would be a damp location to two feet down the wall at which time it would become a wet location. If that makes sense. Here's the problem with that, it's not an official answer. Also up under a gazebo roof, no matter how tall it was, is still a damp location (fog) as long as the walls are open.
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That's a crazy local rule, who made that one up ? What if the gazebo had wood beadboard, would it then be dry or damp in your area ?



kwired said:
Apparently fog can't find the area under the roof overhang:)



Severe thunderstorms might be kind of rare in your area as well, here we do get rain driven by 50+MPH winds quite often.
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Don't you know anything inside a structure is fogproof ?



iwire said:
Each area is so different in typical wiring methods.

Here it is very common to see dry location equipment in clearly damp locations.

Dry location SE connectors on the bottom of outdoor NEMA 3R meter sockets pretty much always.
Click to expand...

agree
 
Cletis said:
That's a crazy local rule, who made that one up ? What if the gazebo had wood beadboard, would it then be dry or damp in your area ?










agree
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Used to actually be shown in some of the hand books, plus you're the one asking the question so obviously you don't know the answer either.
 
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